What's to chat about?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

When the RTA shows a major dip in the lows it's usually caused by boundary reflection sourced nulls, which can be created by both the speaker placement and the mic placement. You should never try to fill a dip more than 6dB deep with EQ. You have to fix the cause, not the symptom.

[Seth]

Bill brought up, in another thread about bass cabinets, something about reproducing frequencies above 5k sounding like ass with distortion... and a few other related comments.

Rather than muddy up that thread, I figured I'd use my fancy new open discussion thread to ask the question of you guys. Really just another point of discussion...

If/when you DI a bass or guitar into a console, how do you typically treat the signal? Personally I've found that, for electric guitar, simply using a high shelf to pull the highs out from around 2-3k and up gives a very similar sound profile as a guitar cab. I've even played with pulling the high's out with a low pass filter. For accoustic I've left it all in. Also, in the few times I've DI'd bass, I also left it all in, but the style was played smooth without any effects. I'm fairly new to it all and half the time I'm flying by the seat of my pants.

What do you guys do? Any tips/tricks... personal stories? This one time at band camp?

[Bruce Weldy]

Bill brought up, in another thread about bass cabinets, something about reproducing frequencies above 5k sounding like ass with distortion... and a few other related comments.

Rather than muddy up that thread, I figured I'd use my fancy new open discussion thread to ask the question of you guys. Really just another point of discussion...

If/when you DI a bass or guitar into a console, how do you typically treat the signal? Personally I've found that, for electric guitar, simply using a high shelf to pull the highs out from around 2-3k and up gives a very similar sound profile as a guitar cab. I've even played with pulling the high's out with a low pass filter. For accoustic I've left it all in. Also, in the few times I've DI'd bass, I also left it all in, but the style was played smooth without any effects. I'm fairly new to it all and half the time I'm flying by the seat of my pants.

What do you guys do? Any tips/tricks... personal stories? This one time at band camp?

I high pass every channel. Typically I'll high pass bass guitar around 45hz....just to keep any harmonics, rattle, thumping, etc out. Then roll off the top end wherever necessary to get rid of string noise. But, don't throttle it....if it's classic rock, they may be looking for that thinner, more Rickenbacker style of sound. Don't get into a rut of doing the same thing for everyone. Do what the music requires and listen to what the bass player has coming out of his rig.

Since we are just chatting......last week I ran a show for one of my favorite bands to mix. Three girl singers and a wailing guitarist. Two of the girls and the guitarist are in my band too..... Sound checked the bass player and it was really low end mud.....went up on stage and listened....yep, that's what he had dialed in ..... oh well....started the sound check tune and it just about jumped out of the PA! "uhhhhh....I forgot to hit the active switch on the bass". Now I had some tone to work with....

On electric guitar, I high pass as usual around 100hz....kinda' like vocals. Don't typically use much EQ on them unless something is offensive - their amp should be putting out what they want. Occasionally, I'll have to pull out some 2-4k if it's just too danged crispy (Teles and Strats with players who have their amps pointed at the back of their knees).

Acoustic guitars are strictly start from scratch - they all sound different. Typically, I'll high pass up as high as 150hz.....I don't want a booming acoustic fighting with the bass. If it's a solo act, then high pass goes down to 75hz or so.

[Seth]

Thanks for sharing all that Bruce.

Do you ever have an electric guitar or bassist just run a DI signal, without an amp?

[Bruce Weldy]

Thanks for sharing all that Bruce.

Do you ever have an electric guitar or bassist just run a DI signal, without an amp?

Bass is either DI box or DI from their amp.. always choose Pre-EQ is there's a button for it. I never mic bass amps.

I've never had to take an electric direct with a DI box, but certainly if they had an xlr output on their amp, I'll take it. I see that on some country guitarists and some steel players. Although I went direct from my Boogie Mark V:25 for years because the direct came after all the tubes - sounded great.

Actually was going to try and take a direct with a DI Box and mic the amp on one guitarist I work with a lot. Mainly because he plays with so much delay, I want to be able to mix in a little dry guitar to see if I could clean him up some. Unfortunately, we had a bad DI box (not one of mine) and not much time, so I had to abort.....but, it's still on my radar for him.

[Strange Kevin]

I run Bass DI all the time, sometime they have in-ear monitors and don't even bring an amp. Of course it depends case by case, but I've found a few general tricks to start with. I like to give a 2-3db boost with a wide Q around 300Hz to bring out some definition and clarity to the bass if i feal it needs it. If it's too boomy I may pull a little 80-100hz down.

On guitar, I agree with Bruce, and if you are having trouble getting them to sit well with the vocals, if you can, check the RTA on the vocal channel to see where the majority of information is and pull a little of that area out of the guitar. On a male vocal it's usually somewhere between 600 - 1kHz. female would probably be a little higher.

[CoronaOperator]

Apart from the above that was mentioned, one thing I do is run aux fed subs. My main mixer outs go to my driverack and only go to my tops. Any channel I want in the subs I set up an aux out and that goes to a third input on my driverack (dbx360) and that then goes to my subs. That allows me to pick and choose which channels gets sub support - usually kick, bass, keys, floor tom and break music. Where this differs from a normal highpass is that a mixers highpass is usually 12 db/octave where by aux fed subs the slope is infinite, if I don't put a channel in the sub aux, nothing from that channel will every make it to the subs. The other way, even if you highpass every channel, with 14 open mics on stage, you will be getting bass from stagewash into the subs as a highpass is a slope, not a cliff.

This also allows me to adjust how much of that channel to feed the subs, if a bass has too much low end I can dial back that channel in the sub aux out rather than use an eq on that channel. I can also adjust the subs overall output from the mixer rather than from the driverack which is useful when you are playing in different venues with different setups.

[Seth]

Bass is either DI box or DI from their amp.. always choose Pre-EQ is there's a button for it. I never mic bass amps.

Do you find that you pull the tweeter frequencies out altogether, or make any purposeful attempt to get the sound to "mimic" what a typical bass cab sounds like?

[Seth]

I run Bass DI all the time, sometime they have in-ear monitors and don't even bring an amp. Of course it depends case by case, but I've found a few general tricks to start with. I like to give a 2-3db boost with a wide Q around 300Hz to bring out some definition and clarity to the bass if i feal it needs it. If it's too boomy I may pull a little 80-100hz down.

On guitar, I agree with Bruce, and if you are having trouble getting them to sit well with the vocals, if you can, check the RTA on the vocal channel to see where the majority of information is and pull a little of that area out of the guitar. On a male vocal it's usually somewhere between 600 - 1kHz. female would probably be a little higher.

Thanks Kevin

[Seth]

Apart from the above that was mentioned, one thing I do is run aux fed subs. My main mixer outs go to my driverack and only go to my tops. Any channel I want in the subs I set up an aux out and that goes to a third input on my driverack (dbx360) and that then goes to my subs. That allows me to pick and choose which channels gets sub support - usually kick, bass, keys, floor tom and break music. Where this differs from a normal highpass is that a mixers highpass is usually 12 db/octave where by aux fed subs the slope is infinite, if I don't put a channel in the sub aux, nothing from that channel will every make it to the subs. The other way, even if you highpass every channel, with 14 open mics on stage, you will be getting bass from stagewash into the subs as a highpass is a slope, not a cliff.

This also allows me to adjust how much of that channel to feed the subs, if a bass has too much low end I can dial back that channel in the sub aux out rather than use an eq on that channel. I can also adjust the subs overall output from the mixer rather than from the driverack which is useful when you are playing in different venues with different setups.
AuxFedMainGraphicLayout.jpg

Your posts are nearly always excellent CO. This one too. While not exactly along the train of thought I was on, you did touch on and re-open some thoughts I've had on Aux Fed Subs. I'll roll them around in the attic for a day or two

[Bruce Weldy]

Bass is either DI box or DI from their amp.. always choose Pre-EQ is there's a button for it. I never mic bass amps.

Do you find that you pull the tweeter frequencies out altogether, or make any purposeful attempt to get the sound to "mimic" what a typical bass cab sounds like?

Well, you'd have to describe what a typical bass cab sounds like.....they are all over the place. With or without tweeters, passive or active basses, EQ controls from sane to insane. Honestly, I don't really worry too much about what the bass cab sounds like - if it's a good bass player, it's gonna sound good and I take the direct signal and EQ it to sound good. That may mean very little at all other than a high pass filter.

Sometimes you get a bass player who has no idea at all what he should sound like - yeah, that's judgmental, but I'm the one out there listening to it all night. If the sound sucks on stage, I try to make it as good as I can out front. Usually, those guys have the tone rolled off on their bass - I always ask 'em to turn it all the up if I can get 'em to. It's easier to EQ out what you don't want than to put in something that just isn't there.

And since you are new to this.....anytime a bass player gets a really weak signal or its distorted sounding out front.....ask him to check the battery in his active bass. Typically, that's the problem. Asked one guy when he last changed out his battery...... "this thing has a battery?"

yep....the life of a sound man.

[Seth]

Well, you'd have to describe what a typical bass cab sounds like.....they are all over the place. With or without tweeters, passive or active basses, EQ controls from sane to insane. Honestly, I don't really worry too much about what the bass cab sounds like - if it's a good bass player, it's gonna sound good and I take the direct signal and EQ it to sound good. That may mean very little at all other than a high pass filter.

I totally get it. Thanks for the follow up Bruce.

Sometimes you get a bass player who has no idea at all what he should sound like - yeah, that's judgmental, but I'm the one out there listening to it all night. If the sound sucks on stage, I try to make it as good as I can out front. Usually, those guys have the tone rolled off on their bass - I always ask 'em to turn it all the up if I can get 'em to. It's easier to EQ out what you don't want than to put in something that just isn't there.

The two bass players I've had experience with were on the opposite ends of what you just described. One played smooth as silk, nice fat low enjoyable tone. The other... he could play but his technique was horrible IMO. Tapped his strings on the off beat, tone slap tone slap tone slap and the string noise was very present. Also, I'm glad you brought up the tone thing, because I couldn't get it to sound good no matter what I did. There just wasn't any meat in it. I multi-track recorded the show, raw incoming signal, DI'd off the back of his amp (Orange something) and even tinkering with it in a DAW... I can cut out the off beat slap, filter out the string noise, but there's just no meat in the tone no matter what plug-in I try. I kept thinking it was something I was missing or needing to learn or fix somehow. Glad to finally be able to let that go.

And since you are new to this.....anytime a bass player gets a really weak signal or its distorted sounding out front.....ask him to check the battery in his active bass. Typically, that's the problem. Asked one guy when he last changed out his battery...... "this thing has a battery?"

I'm grateful for this insight Bruce. Thank you

[Charles Jenkinson]

The two bass players I've had experience with were on the opposite ends of what you just described. One played smooth as silk, nice fat low enjoyable tone. The other... he could play but his technique was horrible IMO. Tapped his strings on the off beat, tone slap tone slap tone slap and the string noise was very present. Also, I'm glad you brought up the tone thing, because I couldn't get it to sound good no matter what I did. There just wasn't any meat in it. I multi-track recorded the show, raw incoming signal, DI'd off the back of his amp (Orange something) and even tinkering with it in a DAW... I can cut out the off beat slap, filter out the string noise, but there's just no meat in the tone no matter what plug-in I try. I kept thinking it was something I was missing or needing to learn or fix somehow. Glad to finally be able to let that go.

Funny that.

[Bruce Weldy]

Tapped his strings on the off beat, tone slap tone slap tone slap and the string noise was very present.

That happens more than you might think. Most times it's not too noticeable. But, when it it......Mike and I were providing sound one evening outside and both our heads jerked up at the same time. It sounded like the OT12s were about to blow. Took about 30 seconds to realize that it was the bass player not only slapping the strings, but he was doing it so hard that the string was hitting the pickup. Sounded awful. Had to run up to the stage and tell him to stop.....he had no idea he was doing it. What's happening is that they are playing drums along with themselves providing a back beat.

This is the same kind of thing you run into with acoustic players. Acoustic players who cut their teeth on playing solo for years are the worst when they join a band. They want to continue to chunkita, chunkita, chunk, chunk like they did when they were their only accompanist. I try to nicely explain that they now had a drummer and a bass player so there's no need to try and fill all of those parts by themselves. Some get it right away - others don't.....they pretty much don't end up in the mix, because they make it worse, not better. That's the decisions you have to make out front. It's not about being equal or fair - it's about providing the best sound you can to the audience.

[Seth]

So, just a little thinking out loud... Kicking some thoughts around.

I had my mind set on doing full width T39's but curiosity had me review the T48 plans to see what the max width for a 12 is. I was surprised to see it's only 24. Envisioning the cabs, a 24x24x48 cab sounds a bit easier to move than a 20x30x39 cab and I really like the idea of the extra 5Hz extension. Also, the dimensions seem to fit a little nicer in smaller enclosed trailer dimensions.

However, there aren't any response charts for a 24" wide T48 loaded with a 12 to compare to the 30" T39 charts.

Loaded with Delta 12LFA's, which would have better overall sensitivity, full width (24") T48 or (28-30") T39?