Contemplating new lights

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Charles Jenkinson
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Contemplating new lights

#1 Post by Charles Jenkinson »

So, my wife put me forward for DJ'ing my eldest son's school's leavers party this year, and I've got the gig - obviously a few months away yet.

Anyhow, the school had a fund raising disco last week and I clocked the DJs lights as I was picking my kids up - nothing fancy, just a Kam party bar and that was it. He's a local guy, popular with the parents, probably because he's got all the entertainment side sorted - you know, "cha cha real good, ...slide to the left", and "summer fair" (gangnam style). But hey, it's where the money is.

I have to confess that it would be real and present purgatory for all, me doing children's entertainment.

However, it got me thinking about my lighting and that I could do with a bit more for an event like that, over and above what I have right now which is just two lanta Orion link v2's led bars. They're quite good, nice and long and bright, with DMX (though I've not used DMX ever yet) and sound to light which I have used. They're also great for uplighting which I've done a few times with them - master-slaved on a slow colour change sequence.

What I'm missing are effects lights suitable for a dance floor environment. So, I've been thinking about this a lot, and arrived at the idea of getting a couple of adj stinger 2's - a multi-effects light with derby, strobe, galaxian lasers, and interestingly UV lights as well. They seem to get rave reviews.

There's many aspects to this, particularly with lasers and strobes, so I can see that keeping things simple (probably not even pitching for a bit of hired in fog/haze machine) is perhaps the way to go, but it's also important to create an engaging atmosphere - or a happy atmosphere (sorry, just channelling Russ Abbott there), and I'm at the beginning of trying to figure out how to do that for a school setting. And I don't want to especially need to ask what I can or cannot do with respect to the lights because if you're in a situation of raising the subject of risk consideration, in today's society, ...well, you know what I mean. It's not as simple as JFDI, and apologize later.

So, that's my 'problem' if you will. I've come here to talk about it, if anyone has any suggestions?

It's only primary school and with my lad having 3 siblings (they're all mine, and there's not going to be any more!)it could be the beginning of a glorious relationship, or a wet fart - either way, it'll be just music, good sound and hopefully good lights.

Thanks for reading this.
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Grant Bunter
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#2 Post by Grant Bunter »

Charles,
Nice read.

I would have only bought something like your Orion's for uplighting or (back) wall wash, so, you have that covered.

I reckon something like the Stinger 2 you mentioned would be a great way to go for effects.
You might like to think about adding some RGBW par cans (which can be linked to auto run) for some front wash too.

Unlike audio, lighting needs to be created in layers to be effective.
An example:
Say you're DJing.
You have Orions on the wall behind you, parcans on you and Stingers at your audience. You've created enough layers to make the lighting seem three dimensional, adding depth.

DMX is good, but is a learning curve. 5 pin is the international standard. 3 pin is what many people produce. Try to stick with 1 of the 2.

It doesn't have to be expensive to get into. If you're happy to potentially fry a laptop, a simple USB to DMX dongle and a free software programme will get you going (I use "freestyler", but have a Enttec DMX USB pro MkII for the DMX output to isolate the laptop from potential spikes). Use 110 Ohm DMX cables. I use terminators on unused outputs, though some say it's not necessary.

Hope this helps...
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Charles Jenkinson
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#3 Post by Charles Jenkinson »

Thanks Grant.

I hadn’t thought about the isolation on the dmx interface. I can’t really afford to fry the laptop - the music would stop. The properly isolated interfaces appear to be £125+ sort of money. Not ideal, but probably necessary.

Nice thoughts about wall wash and 3D layering. I don’t think I need the lights on me as one of those layers, but I could do the wall behind and the wall at the other end with a separate pair of pars, so there’d be 3 layers, I.e the walls at both ends and the floor in between. I’d need to get a few rgb led pars but that’s not so much brass.

The minimum I need to do, is turn the dance floor effects light on and off, which doesn’t really require DMX, but beyond that it would be better if I could change presets which is probably the basic 2 channel mode on the stinger 2 (there’s a full 9 channel mode as well). When it’s a few metres up in the air, DMX is the only way as far as I’m aware, though I think there is a remote for the stinger 2 which may be a cheaper work around until I get dmx’d up. I’ve seen freestyler - seems to be a popular option.

The big consideration has been whether to go for two stinger 2’s or just one. People seem to end up getting 2, and it kind of makes sense, if it’s a good unit - thinking future proofing and other work, like lighting bands or what have you - just one is at a bit of a loose end. The only thing is I’m in for £500 if I go that route, plus a couple of pars and an isolated dmx interface.

The cheapest get away here and still make a show is one stinger, a couple of pars, and investigate the remote control (there also a dongle thing controllable from an apple device - maybe they do this so people don’t have to get setup with dmx) for probably £250-ish.

Incidentally, I was reading J Dunavin’s diy midi controller thread on here last night, and then found one online that looked very nice (9 of each: buttons, sliders and knobs) and cheap. I think I can see how it could be used, but it’s still early days for me: https://www.gear4music.com/Recording-an ... 0YQAvD_BwE
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#4 Post by Grant Bunter »

Lighting is like audio, buy once cry once.
Spend reasonable money from the outset to get a few basics, than spend almost nothing on something that will fail in no time at all.

Joe actually uses midi via Freestyler with his custom controller.

Check out Chauvet, who have just released wifi via USB for lighting control.

or wireless control via Wifi in general, to eliminate the need for a DMX dongle and the concern re isolating your lappy...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
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J_Dunavin
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#5 Post by J_Dunavin »

Hey Charles,
Youth dances are the best! You’ll have fun ;)
Here is one option for usb to DMX
https://www.enttec.com/products/control ... n-dmx-usb/

Wireless is nice too, but can be more expensive to get going. I have 5 flood lights and 8 moving scanner lights, so it became an ease of set up for me, to go wireless.

There are a ton of lights out there to consider, but I’m sure those will work just fine.

I really like Freestyler DMX, there is a bit of a learning curve , but once you get the basics down, you can pre program in some shows and just use some hot keys on the laptop to switch between them. No need for a midi controller right now, if you want to save some money.
If you have ANY DMX questions just let me know.
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NukePooch
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#6 Post by NukePooch »

I'll throw a vote in for QLC+ DMX Software. Used it for years and never had an issue...
https://www.qlcplus.org/

I've used Stingers (and the similar units like Storms, Swarms, etc). Decent units.

Smoke machines tend to need maintenance, and if you use then rarely, they have the tendency to quit working when you need them most. I've rented lots of lighting gear, I'd buy lights before I bought a smoke machine...I've had so many issues with burned out/plugged up machines that I'd rent the smoke as long as possible.
I'm a fan of renting Chauvet Geysers...Cool effects.

One thing, depending on the age group, if the audience is pretty young, I've never seen anything get more attention than bubble machines.
I've used a couple of cheap ADJ Bubbletrons with squirrel-cage fans (quieter) under them to blow bubbles further out...had a DMX switch to turn them on and off.
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Charles Jenkinson
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#7 Post by Charles Jenkinson »

Thanks for the shouts people.

I'm still enjoying researching this area, and I like the idea of DMX and an isolated controller. The software seems to be the way - it appears that the hardware controllers end up having limitations. The one thing I haven't worked out conceptually is if there's a limit of 88 notes (scenes?) with midi control, but that's further down the line in terms of hands on for me - many decent dj lights/devices have cheap remote controls - looks a bit amateur pointing a remote, but that would be my initial solution.

A big thing, in terms of capability, seems to be ambience lighting, as has already been discussed. I'm currently looking into pars with hex LED capability (RGBAW-UV) - they seem to give some sweet colours over just RGB - not necessarily the cheapest option, but my thoughts are that a 4-pack of them would be real nice initial compliment to my LED bars, notwithstanding dancefloor effects lights of course. It's just a learning curve for me, and while I'm looking for a new contract job-wise, I'm suppressing the temptation to buy anything, but it's hopefully resulting in first being more informed. I appreciate there's no wrong answer, but I'm liking the beamz BT280 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sU7LCGWxIc) not least because aesthetically, it has LEDS 'all over the front' of the unit, rather than mostly a black plate with 3 or 5 LED's spaced apart, and it's at a sensible price point and value compared with the adj stuff.

People seem to relay that you are not permitted to use fog/haze machines in many venues, so I agree, it goes to the bottom of the list. Bubble machines, ..hadn't thought of that - one or two of my kids would go mental with that.
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mpm32
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#8 Post by mpm32 »

You need to be careful with bubble machines too. The popped bubbles like to create a slick surface on the dance floor.
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NukePooch
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#9 Post by NukePooch »

mpm32 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:54 pm You need to be careful with bubble machines too. The popped bubbles like to create a slick surface on the dance floor.
This is true....it's soap after all.
FYI, often the haze machines use an oil-based haze, which can do the same thing. Lots of fun to oil up the stage before the talent comes out...
Built:
4 Jack 112L- 3012HO, melded array
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6 Wedgehorn W6 w/ Panel Mount Piezos
2 T48 Slims (15" wide) with 3012LF
4 T48 Fattys (32" wide) with 3015LF

Grant Bunter
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#10 Post by Grant Bunter »

Charles:

Remotes. Careful, you need to check how far away from the light they can be used (reliably).

Fixture types: Basically in LED par can types there are wash lights and much less commonly found, spots (more like traditional par can lamps). Some LED parcans have DMX adjustable beam angles to combat the "wash" appearance.
Large amount of LED's on the face of the parcan can't act as a point source for light, which is what allows a light "beam" to be produced.

There is a constant argument about LED lumen output vs the old school par cans, but honestly, it only matters for white light (which LED parcans are not good at anyway)...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

CoronaOperator
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#11 Post by CoronaOperator »

Bubble machines with a light strobing up high facing down is even cooler! However cool bubble machines are, use them in small doses, prolonged use (over 45 seconds) puts down soapy water on the dancefloor and makes for a skating rink. If you have a crowd underneath the machine you can usually let it go a bit longer as they land on the people more than the floor. Wait a bit for the floor to dry then turn it on briefly a bit seems to work well and builds excitement for the next "blast". I usuallt wait for the crescendo of a song to turn them on. Remote control of the machine is a good idea to do that.

Fog/haze machines really make the lights pop but some venues fire alarm systems will trigger with their use. Unless you have a steady gig with a venue you know you can get away with it, I wouldn't make one a priority. They are problematic and clog up anyways. With those machines either rent or go cheap and consider them disposable when they clog up, or go the opposite and get a Ultratech Radiance - which can be unclogged and rebuilt in <5 minutes. It'll last a lifetime but is very expensive.

I just recently started using the "donner wireless dmx dongles". They have cut down my setup/tear down time significantly as there is no more dmx cable to run. The ones I linked are battery powered receivers and get about 6 hours on a charge. If you run out of receivers you can still run a cable from a light to a fixture that has a receiver and daisy chain off that. They make non-battery powered receivers for half the price but then you need 2 power outlets or a 2 outlet plug in tap for your light. These are great for throwing down lights around the room without having to run data cables. These Donner units also isolate your laptop although I have never heard of anyone frying a laptop from a dmx dongle.

Hex lights are nice and you can do some nice pastels and orange shades with them. I'd say a must if you do weddings and need to match the bridesmaids colors for accent lighting. For just dance events those pastels probably won't be used much but white is nice for load-out and ugly lights at the end of the night, uv is always a plus on its own and really makes the magentas pop and amber lights play really nice accented with blue lights. I personally would rather have more rgb wash lights than a few hex lights to cover more of the room although for bands a nice amber/white front wash is necessary I think.

Software dmx is really the way to go. It is a pretty big learning curve (so are hardware units too) but youtube videos can walk you through it. Be prepared to pull some hair out but once you get the hang of it it's pretty easy. Thing is, every piece of software is a new learning curve. I used showxpress for a number of years and recently changed over to MyDMX 3.0 and had to relearn everything. I really like mydmx 3.0 once I got used to it. For shows, a bunch of us all put our lights together and rent a bunch too. Within a few minutes I can patch all the lights (if they are name brand and already have a file), tell the software where in the room they are, then the software can pixel map them and put a color fade (of my choice) on them all synched to the music. Like swirls that go around the room and what not. Pixel mapping really is next level where your color changes flow around the room smoothly from one fixture to the next which is why I said I would take more rgb fixtures than a few hex ones, the more wash fixtures the better the pixel mapping looks.

With software you don't really need a dedicated strobe light either. You can just make a scene where step 1 is all dimmers are on full, step 2 is all dimmers off, then trigger that scene for strobe. Set it to chase to the music and you can strobe to the bpm's of the song at 2/1, 1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 notes to vary the rate. I also make a scene with step 1 even lights dimmers full, odd lights dimmers off, step 2 opposite, then when I trigger that strobe I get opposite strobing of lights. It'll strobe the dimmers without changing the colors or anything else that you had going on and go back to normal when you release the button. You could go white if you want as well and make button for that and when released, everything goes back to where is was. Pretty much with software if you can think of an effect you want, you can make a button for it.

Edit:

This is what I mean by pixel mapping RGB lights. This is 36 simple cheap single RGB lights mounted on a grid. Now I don't have 36 lights or a grid to mount them to. But my 2 bar lights have 8 segments each so that is 16 segments across. I have a panel light that has 8 segments but they are really close together. Put up a couple wash lights around the room wherever you can find power and something like MyDMX will pixel map them for you just like this video. For sure where ever you don't have a light you will have a dark space, but the software will maintain the overall look once you tell it where they are located. With MyDMX you can patch the lights you do have, point them up the wall towards the ceiling and do this effect in 10-15min.

Last edited by CoronaOperator on Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Built:
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In progress:
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Rich4349
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#12 Post by Rich4349 »

Also be aware of how sensitive the smoke detectors / detection system are in a venue if you plan on using fog / hazers. There's a venue in my town that gets the fire Dept responding there needlessly about every fourth event.

If you DO set off the alarm by accident, you can call either your local non-emergency number, or even 911 if you don't know it, and advise them of the cause. You'll still get an in person response, but a much smaller one.
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CoronaOperator
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#13 Post by CoronaOperator »

Grant Bunter wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:28 pm it only matters for white light (which LED parcans are not good at anyway)...
If you have rgbw par lights and want an almost perfect old school tungsten halogen glow for front wash band lighting, then 806 Lee Zircon warm amber 2 gels are like magic!

They do however mess up some of the rgb colors but it does an amazing job turning a white cold LED into a warm halogen color.
Last edited by CoronaOperator on Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

CoronaOperator
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Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: Contemplating new lights

#14 Post by CoronaOperator »

Rich4349 wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:45 pm If you DO set off the alarm by accident, you can call either your local non-emergency number, or even 911 if you don't know it, and advise them of the cause. You'll still get an in person response, but a much smaller one.
Had to do that last Friday! Unplugged the machine and then an hour later the promoter thought if he plugged it back in and used it "lightly" it would be okay. Nope! Had to call again! Machine went in my truck after that!
dd
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Grant Bunter
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Re: Contemplating new lights

#15 Post by Grant Bunter »

CoronaOperator wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:52 pm
Grant Bunter wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:28 pm it only matters for white light (which LED parcans are not good at anyway)...
If you have rgbw par lights and want an almost perfect old school tungsten halogen glow for front wash band lighting, then 806 Lee Zircon warm amber 2 gels are like magic!

They do however mess up some of the rgb colors but it does an amazing job turning a white cold LED into a warm halogen color.
Amazing!, thanks for sharing CO :)
Checked out the entire Zircon range at lee filters, might have to get some product.

Being an old incandescent kinda guy since the 80's, if I need to light up faces on stage, I still tend do that the old way with Par 56 and (usually) a Lee brushed silk (228) because it only diffuses in one direction, or opal frost (410), nowadays via a DMX 4 channel dimmer.

Very handy to know I could go all LED with a suitable solution when it comes to face washing!
That zircon warm amber 6 looks interesting too...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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