How to build Rack Panels and put together a rack

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Das Jugghead
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:08 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: How to build Rack Panels and put together a rack

#31 Post by Das Jugghead »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:15 am
Das Jugghead wrote: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:42 am Hey Bruce. Yes, sorry - I meant DI as in direct boxes. I would eventually like to have another quality DI (Radial) permanently affixed to my rig. At the present moment I have ART DI boxes which are okay in rehearsals but not sure how they are viewed by sound men in terms of quality. I had a Radial stolen (hence the desire for "permanently affixed to rig" ) and will eventually have another.
Got news for ya.....sound companies don't just throw Radials out there for just anyone to stomp on and destroy. Those are for bands with riders that specify. Everyone else typically gets decent passive boxes.

And there is really no way to put a DI in your gear rack - that would mean long instrument cable runs from the artist to the DI, then back again to the amp. Not practical and induces a ton of additional noise with high-impedance unbalanced cabling.

Get some decent passive DIs - I have some Rapco boxes. Never let me down and work fine.
Ok I am a bit confused here. Back when I ran a standard amp head and cabinet I had my wireless go to the amp and cabinet. The sound man would place he DI inline between the receiver of my wireless and the input of the amp. The XLR went to the stage snake. I am not sure how my current set-up is any different other than I run my wireless to my pedal board and then to the rack which houses my preamp and power amp. Couldn't the sound man still have the DI inline between the pedal board and the input of the preamp ?

Bruce Weldy wrote: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:15 am
Das Jugghead wrote: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:42 am
The reason I am looking into the dampening/shock foam is because I am going to be placing the speaker cabinets on top of the rack case. This keeps my stage footprint small while also getting my speakers up higher to where the drummer and I can hear them. It seems stages are getting smaller and smaller so I am trying to keep my real estate reasonable. I was thinking foam between the speaker cabinets and the rack cabinet as well as foam lining the cabinet itself - kind of a double shell with foam in between.
Ok.....I just realized that you are talking about a bass rig, not PA. Since we were talking racks, I was figuring PA.....I'll leave it up there, since it's all valid for PA.....

So, yes you can put a rackmount DI in your rack. However, I still see no benefit to a shock-mount rack for your rig. The case isn't any stronger and the whole point of the shock-mount is to protect gear from jolts and getting banged around. Having a speaker sit on top of it does neither.
Cool - thanks

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

QQ

#32 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Das Jugghead wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:19 am
Ok I am a bit confused here. Back when I ran a standard amp head and cabinet I had my wireless go to the amp and cabinet. The sound man would place he DI inline between the receiver of my wireless and the input of the amp. The XLR went to the stage snake. I am not sure how my current set-up is any different other than I run my wireless to my pedal board and then to the rack which houses my preamp and power amp. Couldn't the sound man still have the DI inline between the pedal board and the input of the preamp ?
Sorry for the confusion.....as I said later in the response, I was talking about a PA rack since that's what this thread was about. I forgot that you were building a bass rack. A high-end direct box in your rack would be certainly to your advantage and the soundman. And if you have a rack panel in the back with the output clearly labeled - he'll be your friend for life.

And yes, the soundman wants to take your signal before it hits you preamp and amp settings. The settings that you put on your sound is to make your speaker cab sound good, but those settings are not necessarily (meaning never) what will sound good in the PA. I always try to get a line direct from the bass. If I can't do that and have to take a DI from the bass amp, I always try to get it switched to pre-EQ if that option is available.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Das Jugghead
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:08 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: QQ

#33 Post by Das Jugghead »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:37 am
Das Jugghead wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:19 am
Ok I am a bit confused here. Back when I ran a standard amp head and cabinet I had my wireless go to the amp and cabinet. The sound man would place he DI inline between the receiver of my wireless and the input of the amp. The XLR went to the stage snake. I am not sure how my current set-up is any different other than I run my wireless to my pedal board and then to the rack which houses my preamp and power amp. Couldn't the sound man still have the DI inline between the pedal board and the input of the preamp ?
Sorry for the confusion.....as I said later in the response, I was talking about a PA rack since that's what this thread was about. I forgot that you were building a bass rack. A high-end direct box in your rack would be certainly to your advantage and the soundman. And if you have a rack panel in the back with the output clearly labeled - he'll be your friend for life.

And yes, the soundman wants to take your signal before it hits you preamp and amp settings. The settings that you put on your sound is to make your speaker cab sound good, but those settings are not necessarily (meaning never) what will sound good in the PA. I always try to get a line direct from the bass. If I can't do that and have to take a DI from the bass amp, I always try to get it switched to pre-EQ if that option is available.
Hey Bruce thanks for the clarification - I get what you meant now. With the explanation of the sound man wanting the signal prior to preamp that means in my case I would need to mount a DI on the pedal board. I have an MXR M81 Bass Preamp and wondered if you have any experience with this as a DI?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... ass-preamp

And on the subject of of pre vs. post preamp signal I have some questions as well. Every bass player out there has "their sound" and I suppose I am no different. Is there any type of sound or effect that would be okay for FOH? For me I use a touch of compression, stereo chorus, and the occasional hint (as in a slight smudge) of dirt for effects. Most of what I do for effects comes from my fingers but the aforementioned do help to accentuate that.

Hey I wanted to say thanks again for your feedback and help - I really do appreciate the opportunity to learn I all I can.

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: QQ

#34 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Das Jugghead wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:22 pm
And on the subject of of pre vs. post preamp signal I have some questions as well. Every bass player out there has "their sound" and I suppose I am no different. Is there any type of sound or effect that would be okay for FOH? For me I use a touch of compression, stereo chorus, and the occasional hint (as in a slight smudge) of dirt for effects. Most of what I do for effects comes from my fingers but the aforementioned do help to accentuate that.

Hey I wanted to say thanks again for your feedback and help - I really do appreciate the opportunity to learn I all I can.
I guess the way I should have said it is that we want your signal in a state where it won't get changed during the show. If that means you have some pedals/preamp/etc. that stays right where you put it at sound check - fine. We just don't want a signal that will have the EQ changed during the show (twiddling knobs on the amp) to make the rig sound right (to you) on stage. Otherwise, every move you make has an effect on your sound in the PA. Most good bass heads offer a pre-EQ output via XLR.

I used to shy away from those, but I'm using them more and more as I get lazier.....and the results are usually ok. If there is a problem, we use a direct straight from the bass.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Das Jugghead
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:08 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: QQ

#35 Post by Das Jugghead »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:36 pm
Das Jugghead wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:22 pm
And on the subject of of pre vs. post preamp signal I have some questions as well. Every bass player out there has "their sound" and I suppose I am no different. Is there any type of sound or effect that would be okay for FOH? For me I use a touch of compression, stereo chorus, and the occasional hint (as in a slight smudge) of dirt for effects. Most of what I do for effects comes from my fingers but the aforementioned do help to accentuate that.

Hey I wanted to say thanks again for your feedback and help - I really do appreciate the opportunity to learn I all I can.
I guess the way I should have said it is that we want your signal in a state where it won't get changed during the show. If that means you have some pedals/preamp/etc. that stays right where you put it at sound check - fine. We just don't want a signal that will have the EQ changed during the show (twiddling knobs on the amp) to make the rig sound right (to you) on stage. Otherwise, every move you make has an effect on your sound in the PA. Most good bass heads offer a pre-EQ output via XLR.

I used to shy away from those, but I'm using them more and more as I get lazier.....and the results are usually ok. If there is a problem, we use a direct straight from the bass.
Awesome - thank you so much for the explanation.

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: How to build Rack Panels and put together a rack

#36 Post by Bruce Weldy »

I'm bringing this zombie thread back to life.......

The venue where this rack is located has upgraded to QSC KLA boxes - 2 per side. The same sub is in there. They added on to the stage and upgraded the lights. It's been like this for the last year or so.

A few months back, I persuaded the owner to get full production gear. Before, the venue provided the PA, but the acts had to bring mics, cables, stands, etc. This was a PITA, because most bands expected that there would be a full compliment of gear since there was a PA.

So, I put together a list and ordered a bunch of mics, stands, stage snakes, etc. I then built 530 feet of assorted length mic cables. The other thing I did was to turn 3 of the channels on the 8 channel stage front snake into returns. That gives us 5 channels of mics, acoustics, etc. along with the ability of running 3 monitors up front all off one snake.

The back stage snake is a 12x4 to catch all the backline and drums plus any monitors not up front.

Because of the QSCs being further apart and forward, the tables right down front aren't getting a good mix, so we've been using a QSC K8 on its side for front fill. It's a concentric horn, so it no problem on its side. It's been running off of an aux send.

Well, that's been cooking for a couple of months - now the owner wants to hit the back of the room and the bar area better, so we are going to use some speakers back there as delay speakers. I'd rather them be mounted in line with mains and pointed down and back from the roof, but that ain't gonna' happen, so they are off center.

I told him to do this right we'd have to upgrade the Driverack. We got a Driverack 260 - it will be putting out L, R, Sub, Front Fill, Delay 1, Delay 2.

He brought me the rack today and I've gotten started on the additional outputs in the back rack panel. While it's in my shop, I'm gonna add two more Aux outputs up front. We haven't needed them, but if someone wants to control the Front Fill with an Aux instead of through the Driverack, they can do that without us running out of Aux sends up front. We also use one of the Auxes for a feed to the radio station when we do a show with Ray Wylie Hubbard as he interviews some singer-songwriters and they play some of their songs. If you don't know who Ray Wylie is - look him up. His biggest claim to fame is that he wrote Up Against The Wall Redneck Mother that Jerry Jeff Walker had a hit with.

Anyway, stay tuned - I'll be posting some pics of the add-ons.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: How to build Rack Panels and put together a rack

#37 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Had to map out the spots for the new connectors on the back rack panel. Three more will fit just right in the remaining space.
IMG_3526.JPG
Instead of pulling the panel and having to deal with all the connectors already in place, I just shoved some paper underneath to catch the metal shavings and drilled and punched it while in the rack.
IMG_3527.JPG
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Then I installed the connectors, pulled the paned and soldered in the additional leads that come from the driverack for Front Fill, Delay 1, and Delay 2.
IMG_3532.JPG

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: How to build Rack Panels and put together a rack

#38 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Next up was adding two more Auxes (monitor outs) to the front panel. I went ahead and pulled this one, stuck it in my jig I built some time back for drilling panels and added two holes for the extra outputs...
IMG_3533.JPG
Then just added the cables and connectors.
IMG_3534.JPG
IMG_3535.JPG
IMG_3538.JPG
All finished....
IMG_3539.JPG
IMG_3540.JPG
IMG_3541.JPG
If you double-click on the pics, they will have the correct orientation...

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: How to build Rack Panels and put together a rack

#39 Post by Bruce Weldy »

I manually transferred the EQ curve from the old DR to the new Driverack 260. The owner had measured the distances for the delay speakers and I added those in. I also changed the crossover point allowing the mains to run down to 100 and the subs up to 90. I had increased the gain some on the sub ouput while on the bench.

We took it to the venue and re-installed it. I was planning to come back the next day to re-EQ the system, but when we fired it up, it sounded better than before. I used a metronome app on my iPad to play a click through the system for time alignment. Turned out that the settings I put in were spot on. The two delay speakers were timed up right and the whole system sounded great.

We routed a connector for the front fill into the stage, so it is handled by the Driverack now instead of running it through an aux.

The real test will be tomorrow night - I'll mix the first show in there after the change.

I think we've got this venue in good shape and I'm looking forward to mixing a few shows in there this summer.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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