Marching Band Sound Reinforcement

[RustyGadget]

If you haven't seen a marching band in a few years, you are in for a surprise. It is not uncommon to see the bands hauling $15-$20K setups around that are rolled onto a football field and used to provide sound for spoken narration, instrumental solos (yes even flute), small combos of instruments, and sound reinforcement for the front ensemble (marimbas, vibraphones, xylophones, timpani, drum set, Latin percussion, bass guitar, synth, etc).

I'm trying to help my daughter's band director figure out how to get equipment together for next year. I'm comfortable hooking everything up, just not picking all of it out. Luckily I've found some setups that have been successfully deployed by other groups.

2X PreSonus StudioLive 18sAI Subwoofers - $1,250 ea
2X PreSonus StudioLive 315AI Loudspeakers - $1,450 ea
Total $5,400

2X PreSonus ULT 18 Subwoofers - $1,200 ea
2X PreSonus ULT 15 Loudspeakers - $1,100 ea
Total $4,600

2X Yamaha CW218V Subwoofers - $1,500 pr
2X Yamaha C215V Loudspeakers - $1,400 pr
1X Yamaha PX8 Amp - $700
1X Yamaha PX10 Amp - $800
Total $4,400

2X Yamaha DXS18 Subwoofers - $1,300 ea
2X Yamaha DSR115 Loudspeakers - $1,000 ea
Total $4,600

Cabinets will be stacked on a rolling cart and spaced evenly on each side of the 50 yard line out to the 35-45 yard lines (placement can change from year to year)

I did find this.........

MYork's Bass Cart
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... CHING+bass
DR250
Tuba 24 then Titan 48
QSC 1450 Amp

But that was for a single bass player to use. I also saw that he had some Omni15's for the indoor drum line.

What I need help with is picking a cabinet/sub/amp combo that will equal or surpass the above listed setups that can be strapped to a cart and rolled around be high school kids form July until October. Any takers?

[kekani]

How timely - I just watcedh a Marching Band Competition last night, and here are my thoughts, which may or may not help, but I'm responding, so I'm going to vent a little.

First off, most bands run full range 15's.

Irritates me when 1/2 the bands lay their speakers on the side. Makes me happy when the band not only orients the speakers the right way, but builds a cart to actually angle the speaker up to the stands.

One band had 2 keys playing a heavy constant bassline that overpowered the band through distorted Yamaha subs and 15 "tops", one setup on each side of the 40 Total crap.

The host band (private school) ran 1 key through 2xJBL line array and sub, one setup on each side on the 40. Well done mix there.

So I though what would I do if I ran it. My first thought: Split a couple of T48's with a DR250 on top, done. That's a LOT of pack space. This may be "wrong", but the reinforced sound shouldn't overpower the band, so a pair of T39's and DR250, split on the 40 should suffice.

Now, if your band is bass heavy, then you'll need to do the "normal" 2 subs per top, so you're looking at least 4 subs, of whatever model, and if you're doing this, I'm thinking T48 or T60, depending if the source is live, or recorded.

Hope this helps.

[Charles Jenkinson]

A few video references of what you're trying to compete with or emulate might be useful. And information on your lowest frequency instruments - are they acoustic or electronic - what are they. Is it acoustic sound augmentation you're after, or whole sale amplification?

My first thought when you said marching bands, was that they were originally for going out to war - well, you've come to the right place.

[RustyGadget]

Kekani

I agree most groups aren't doing it right. Everything should blend, there should be a balance.

Thanks for your reply.


Charles

Marimbas 110-2093Hz
Vibraphone 175-1397Hz
Timpani 73-262Hz
Bass Guitar 40-4KHz
Electric Guitar 80-6KHz
Spoken Word 80-260Hz
Drum set 60-10KHz
Synth ?-? Depends on the patches the band director chooses.
(All ranges from Google)

We need acoustic augmentation of the percussion instruments particularly the mallets (marimba, vibes, etc). Amplification for guitars and keys (synth) and any instrumental solos (woodwind or brass).

Sound like this.....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aCIXrSoOimQ

[Tom Smit]

Based on those frequencies you could use the Titan39, although I am inclined to suggest the T48 instead. Either one, maximum width. For tops, the OmniTop12 would work quite well.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Being outdoors with no boundary reinforcement chasing after 35Hz is futile, and unnecessary anyway, so I'd go with T39 in the largest size that can be carted, if not two, for maximum output where it's really needed, above 50Hz. As always DR250 tops if you have the skills and patience to build them, OTop 12s if not.

[Grant Bunter]

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

Cabinets will be stacked on a rolling cart and spaced evenly on each side of the 50 yard line out to the 35-45 yard lines (placement can change from year to year)

I understand aesthetics, but the physics of sound dictate that aesthetics is the final consideration, rather than the first.

If the goal is to have 2 carts, for example, each with sub(s), then, if you go with the suggested T39, those carts should never be within 20 yards of each other (it's actually 18.6 yards, but 20 is a nice round figure).

The reason is described in the first paragraph of this thread:
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... f=10&t=398

Please read and understand this, and also make sure whoever is responsible for the cart placement on a year to year basis also understands it.
It means the carts should never be on the 45 yard lines. 40 yard lines is ok, 30 or 35 better.

It is pointless having any system, then cruelling low frequency output due to placement.

It does present another option. A central cluster of subs. If a third cart isn't appealing, seperate the two carts appropriately.

What I need help with is picking a cabinet/sub/amp combo that will equal or surpass the above listed setups that can be strapped to a cart and rolled around be high school kids form July until October.

Quite apart from saving costs because of DIY, there is one thing about these cabs.
They are quite light.
I, by myself, can deadlift 20" wide T39's on top of each other to stack for storage.
I don't think many people could do that with the sub cabs you mentioned in your first post.
Being light means less effort to move and position.

Amp requirements are going to come back to what you end up deciding to build, and what drivers you put in them. As that decision becomes clearer, our ability to advise you on amp requirements will increase...

[RustyGadget]

Grant, thanks for the welcome and the advice.

So I get now why not to put subs on opposite 40 yardlines. I might have eventually figured that out from the trolling I've been doing but probably not. I had already seen that page but it all hasn't clicked yet.

So now that I get this idea what is the best way to set the T39s? If we keep them on the outside yardlines should they be ground angled? Should the subs point straight toward the audience, be angled in, or possibly out? Some of the stadiums we visit have a ten foot or higher wall between the crowd and field/track. If we do a central cluster should the subs be ground angled or would V-coupled be better? If V-coupled could I mount them on a cart which would create a bottom coupling plate as well as mounting a top coupling plate? If ground angled should both point straight ahead or be angled in or out?

Yes the idea of lighter cabs is very appealing even if I want these permanently mounted to a cart.

Any other suggestions or things you think I should now. (Assume I have no idea about any of this)

As for the questions about the amp, yes I haven't purchased any plans yet. But I am starting to see that multiple options are recommended and can understand why you can't give any advice for that. I'm just glad others are willing to help me learn.

[Bruce Weldy]

the physics of sound dictate that aesthetics is the final consideration, rather than the first.

Grant, you poor naive gullible man...... you have obviously never had to deal with a committee of women.

The most important thing is how it looks.

The second most important thing is how it looks.

The third most important thing is to repeat those first two important things over and over.

And you WILL NOT confuse the issue with facts.

[Grant Bunter]

the physics of sound dictate that aesthetics is the final consideration, rather than the first.

Grant, you poor naive gullible man...... you have obviously never had to deal with a committee of women.

The most important thing is how it looks.

The second most important thing is how it looks.

The third most important thing is to repeat those first two important things over and over.

And you WILL NOT confuse the issue with facts.

I know I know, I should know better. I worked in a female dominated industry for 30 years.
Fortunately, in the live band and sound industry, sometimes we can get away with stuff though, right?

[Grant Bunter]

Grant, thanks for the welcome and the advice.

No worries

So I get now why not to put subs on opposite 40 yardlines. I might have eventually figured that out from the trolling I've been doing but probably not. I had already seen that page but it all hasn't clicked yet.

So now that I get this idea what is the best way to set the T39s? If we keep them on the outside yardlines should they be ground angled? Should the subs point straight toward the audience, be angled in, or possibly out? Some of the stadiums we visit have a ten foot or higher wall between the crowd and field/track. If we do a central cluster should the subs be ground angled or would V-coupled be better? If V-coupled could I mount them on a cart which would create a bottom coupling plate as well as mounting a top coupling plate? If ground angled should both point straight ahead or be angled in or out?

Because you want the cabs on carts, ground angling isn't really an option. You have to maintain stability and safety.
As long as the bottom or side of the cab is near the boundary (in this case the boundary is the ground) you will get boundary loading, and that adds about +3dB.
Ideally, the cabs will be as near to the ground as possible, but still on a cart, so one idea to achieve that is have the cart base slung on the underside of the axles, but providing enough clearance to move the cart. This also gives the cart a lower centre of gravity.
You can employ aesthetics there to make the axle(s) dissappear lol.
V plating would give you + 3dB as well. But then you lose the height of the cab as a base to stack mains/tops. Everything is a compromise, but I would have 2 x maximum width T39's side by side on the cart with the mouths at the bottom, then stack Otops or DR's on top. A pair of DR's each side. The natural cab angles of the DR's may let you aim the top cab more towards the bleachers if you have a 10' wall around the field.
It doesn't overly matter where subs face. Content below 100Hz is omnidirectional.

Yes the idea of lighter cabs is very appealing even if I want these permanently mounted to a cart.

Any other suggestions or things you think I should now. (Assume I have no idea about any of this)

There's heaps we can tell you. What to use equipment wise and how to run it all.
Little steps though. Decide subs and tops, so you can get some plans.
Once you've studied the plans, do some costings.
Think about the builds. Who will build them? Think about time frames.
There's so much experience here in this forum we can answer all that and more.

As for the questions about the amp, yes I haven't purchased any plans yet. But I am starting to see that multiple options are recommended and can understand why you can't give any advice for that. I'm just glad others are willing to help me learn.

[Charles Jenkinson]

Ground-loading a T39 is a matter of putting it mouth down on an open-bottomed cart with the mouth about a foot off the ground. I think it would be stable enough, if strapped to the cart, and built as wide as one could make it.

The other matter of more than one subwoofer, and separated, on carts, is power and signal. How does that work...? I'd just run one 4 core cable across from the master cart with inverter generator on it, and have the sub and top running through one cable on a 4 pole speakon.

[RustyGadget]

To cut to the chase I need to run a quick cost analysis. The band boosters will be paying for this if I get the green light and to do that I need a ball park figure. I've been trying to read previous threads to learn what I don't know I don't know and I have a long way to go to truly figure this out.

That being said based on previos posts I want to consider building the following T39 x 2 and OTop 12 x 2. When I go through Speaker Hardware's site I get about $2300 for flat packs, shipping, and kits using the Kappalite speakers for the T39s and OTops. But what drivers do I need to get? Once I settle on drivers what amp?

How much could be saved if I cut the parts instead of getting flat packs? Or maybe an easier question to answer, how many sheets of 5x5 ply do I need for these four cabs? I don't need an exact amount but need some numbers to take to the band director and budget committee.

[Bruce Weldy]

To cut to the chase I need to run a quick cost analysis. The band boosters will be paying for this if I get the green light and to do that I need a ball park figure. I've been trying to read previous threads to learn what I don't know I don't know and I have a long way to go to truly figure this out.

That being said based on previos posts I want to consider building the following T39 x 2 and OTop 12 x 2. When I go through Speaker Hardware's site I get about $2300 for flat packs, shipping, and kits using the Kappalite speakers for the T39s and OTops. But what drivers do I need to get? Once I settle on drivers what amp?

How much could be saved if I cut the parts instead of getting flat packs? Or maybe an easier question to answer, how many sheets of 5x5 ply do I need for these four cabs? I don't need an exact amount but need some numbers to take to the band director and budget committee.

My rule of thumb on my builds has been that I can build two T39s or two OTops for $750 a pair. That's wood, duratex, and kits from Speakerhardware. So, $1500 should get you a pair of each if you build 'em yourself. That's with 3012LF in the subs and 2512s in the OTops...3012HOs will be a little more.

But, don't forget a driverack, amps, cables, rack, mixer, etc.

[LelandCrooks]

Depending on the width of the t39's, 6-9 sheets.