Band Lights

[Sydney]

I have 2 ellipsoidals and 2 fresnels I salvaged from a dumpster... I used to use them with 8 incandescent pars, they were good controlled lighting with a soft amber gel in them. Maybe I should mix those with LEDs, just for when I need some amber on the band. LEDs can do the rest.

This might help
http://www.onstagelighting.co.uk/band-l ... -your-gig/

As you probably already know...
The Fresnels are wash lights usually for diffuse lighting at medium range and offer a degree of adjustment. They don't give sharp focus.
The ellipsoidal ( brand and type? ) may be have a zoom or they may be for a fixed distance.
You can change the focus from soft to sharp, so they can be used as spots.
Check to see if there are new lamp options as improvements are likely if these are old fixture.
Shutters and barn doors come in handy for framing and controlling light spill
BTW: I have seen a lot done with just 2 gelled colors ( amber and blue ).

Syd

[DrDoug018]

OK, onto your setup. I would indeed go with two trees, but you're going to need a DMX splitter for convenience. Chauvet DMX-2x or Data Stream 4 will allow you to split your DMX signal - I'd go with the DS4.

So, you need this splitter so that you can control each tree separately? Can you get away without this item and just use a DMX controller like the Obey 3 or Obey 10 if you just want to control each side the same?

Build yourself some bases for the Par 38s, and use those as uplights. Two uplights behind the drum kit, and two uplighting your mains (or just clamped to one of the legs of the speaker stand). If your mains aren't on stage with you, I'd do 4 uplights behind the band. Run DMX from two channels, if necessary.

I like this idea very much.

The grab two ColorStrip ($178 each) and center mount the scanners on each tree. Run DMX to each tree.

Do you think a mini colorstrip on each side would be enough just for the band? I don't think we want to light up the crowd so much, just the stage.

Another question. Some in the band like the idea of getting a 20 foot truss system in addition to our existing two trees. I know this adds a lot to the cost but would seem to add quite a bit of flexibility for adding things down the road. Any thoughts on this or does anyone know of any good sources for these things?

Thanks - this has been soooo helpful.

Doug

[bzb]

So, you need this splitter so that you can control each tree separately? Can you get away without this item and just use a DMX controller like the Obey 3 or Obey 10 if you just want to control each side the same?

You can, but remember that DMX is one long serial link with a terminator on the end. So, for the setup I described, you'll have a big 25-50' cable running from your controller to the uplights in the back, then a 25' up one tree, another 50' down the tree and then up the other one.

Pain in the ass, if you ask me. Not to mention DMX cables aren't exactly cheap. You're not going to want to use microphone cables if you run it out that long. I used a couple mic cables (see my "cheap XLR thread") at first, as well as Cat 5 cable, without any issue. But my entire lighting rig is under 70 feet of total cable. I went ahead and ponied up for real DMX cable for the long portion running up to the truss.


Do you think a mini colorstrip on each side would be enough just for the band? I don't think we want to light up the crowd so much, just the stage.


Ah, absolutely. Even cheaper this way. The full size Colorstrips are *very* bright, so you probably don't want that on you, being that close.


Another question. Some in the band like the idea of getting a 20 foot truss system in addition to our existing two trees. I know this adds a lot to the cost but would seem to add quite a bit of flexibility for adding things down the road. Any thoughts on this or does anyone know of any good sources for these things?


See if you can snag some box truss off Craigslist cheap, or just go ahead and get it locally. Once you get this stuff shipped, it costs just as much as if you'd purchased locally... trussing is just plain heavy.

GC had some American DJ (who distributes Global Truss, and it really seems like the same stuff to me) box truss for like $80 a section. 20' seems excessive to me, but if you guys really are spread out that far, you're definitely going to want some good quality, decent sized box truss.

I'm all for going cheap, but you just simply can't when you're talking more than 12' or so.

[Gregory East]

You guys are talking a foreign language to me. Hereabouts the only acts with lighting are the touring out-of-towners. I met a bloke a while back who reckoned lighting was up there with musical proficiency. What do y'all reckon?

<backstory> I have a another bloke who wants me to play bass in his covers band. He's not flashy to look at but he has some stupendous pipes >>

In a town of nonlit cover bands I'm a bit hesitant to go down the flash lightshow road. Would we come across as poseurs or take the Aussie ski crowd by storm? I reckon we play pretty damn good.

[Ron K]

Incandescent par 64 fixtures I'm used to seeing are generally 500-1000 watt fixtures. 600 watt DYS and 1000 watt pars are probably the most used varieties. My front wash lights are 1500 watt color mixers fixtures with 3 - 500 watt FTK bulbs in them. They throw a ton of light. The lumen's are very high but unfortunately the filters and optics are not the best and as a result I do get a pretty decent amount of color bleed at distance.

As far as measuring you have to measure depending on the type of fixture not just the bulb type.

You can measure PARs for example in candlepower since they emit light in a sort of beam spread depending on the Par Bulb. Wide ,Medium or Narrow. With DYS the bulb emits a lot of light to the sides of the bulb and also out the back requiring a rear reflector to help direct more of that light out the front of the can.

LEDs on the other hand are far more direct light out of the front of the LED and very little of to the sides and back.They should really be measured in Candlepower Distribution. Same with arc bulb and halogen bulb scanners or any fixture with optics. Since optics focus the light into a beam.

LED wash and other wash fixtures would be best measured in lumens as well.

Lumens is a spherical measurement and Candlepower/Beam Center Candlepower,Candlepower Distribution etc. a focused beam intensity measurement.

I'm not a lighting guy but when the squints are around talking shop you pick up a few things along the way! I have yet to see any LED Fixture rival an ARC Bulb fixture. They can match up with some lower power PARS and Incandescent Fixtures with optics but ARC Bulb/Discharge Bulb Fixtures are very powerful.

The Source Four I believe can handle a 575 watt-750watt discharge bulb and with it's optics has incredible cutting power from some very long distances. FWIW ETC has some very nice and very effective LED WASH fixtures but man they are not cheap!

I dont think there is any argument that you put LEDs up next to any other bulb type watt per watt and the LED wins out. Matching watt per watt however means a ton of LEDs and a very high cost.

This is an interesting read.

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/lofiversion ... 18034.html

[Sydney]

Well put Ron...
To put things in perspective:
A 60 WATT tungsten incandescent produces 700-800 lumen.
100 W tungsten incandescent 1750
A PAR38 Led 900 lumen
Chauvet LED PAR 64 3310 lumen
Incandescent PAR64 6500 lumen
Fresnel Lights 12000 Lumen
ETC 16520 lumen ( 575wt lamp )

On the basis of just lumen output the differences are apparent.
Light follows the Inverse Square Law quite faithfully
From
http://www.stagelightingprimer.com/inde ... ame.html&1
( See the Inverse Square Law )
And as noted there are functional differences.
( I use ETC Source 4 that allow beam shaping and zoom. )
Color creation and purity is different, Gels filters come in hundreds of shades.
http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp
Blending shades with RGB and yellow is limited compared to gelled lamps.
All in all different lights for different purposes.
LEDs have their niche for which they are suited.
I use LED's for specials and FX but serious lighting requires the appropriate fixtures and lamps.

Syd

[bzb]

Whoa, you guys are going way over talking about pro touring setups. 99% of the guys on this board, let alone any other board, would have zero clue where you'd even buy those fixtures.

Isn't this the same reason that we get these huge forum arguments about gigantic pro touring setups when it comes to speaker cabinets?

For a small band that's gigging in bars and small clubs with stages that barely fit the drum kit, there is no compelling reason NOT to use common LED fixtures available today.

Yes, I agree that the light is not where pro touring equipment is. Hell, there aren't any LED fixtures yet that really compete with traditional halogen or discharge lamps in Martin club fixtures. However, a cluster of 10mm (and even if you have enough 5mm) diodes WILL indeed keep up with any "prosumer" grade fixtures in a Par or Strip configuration... while saving headaches of changing bulbs, drawing CONSIDERABLY less power, and zero heat issues during teardown.


Just to be clear, this is the setup I run:

two Martin SCX500 (150W halogen)
one Martin EFX600 (150W discharge)
two Chauvet Colorstrips (384 5mm LED)
4-8 cheapo Chinese Par 38 cans (60 10mm LED)
ADJ Mystic LED
Chauvet Vue 3.1
controlled by Chauvet Obey 40

[Sydney]

Point taken and understood...
In the future I will keep my advice/opinion/perspective to myself

Syd

[AntonZ]

Please don't, Syd. Even though I will never own a pro size PA or light rig , I do learn a lot here. Keep it coming.

[bzb]

Point taken and understood...
In the future I will keep my advice/opinion/perspective to myself

Syd

Haha, no, not saying that at all. I absolutely respect your opinion and knowledge on a variety of subjects!

But in this case, you guys are definitely talking about using a jackhammer to drive a 16 penny nail I don't even know where to get a jackhammer...

[Ron K]

Actually there's quite a few guys here who do medium to large club setups. Were really not talking pro touring rigs at all.The ETC Syd speaks of is a Theater Light which are also used by some guys doing smaller shows.

600 and 1000 watt pars are club as well. You just dont use as many. Sure you can use 150-250-300 watt ones too. My one buddy who does a lot of lighting at the same shows we do sound in clubs was using 30-60 Par64s with 500 watt medium bulbs. Man the stages were very warm after a few sets. Especially when you get into those rooms where you cant get the cranks above 10'!

Now he is using arc bulb scanners up to 8 of them in the 250 watt variety and 2 1000 watt front washes.Some haze and away we go. His old rig (pars) was one before technobeams were even available. Then he did buy some technobeams (very expensive at the time) but they were terribly unreliable. When better scanners came out he bought those and has been using them ever since. He was recently talking about purchasing some LED front Pallets to replace the 1000 watt washes. Problem is it's tough to justify the cost when you need to equal the light output of 2000 watts of Incandescent's! I think he said he was looking to purchase 8 of the 17 x 9 pallets but feared the output to not be up to the incandescent's.

Pluses are much less heat.
Nice rich colors.
Many colors.
DMX capable

Less energy to run them but the rig operator and owner dont ever see those savings passed on so...............
Less weight to carry per fixture but more overall so a wash there.

Minuses
Cost per lumen
less output

I think you all may be reading us wrong about LED fixtures.

In small venues they will and do work fine. Heck I love some of those deep rich colors they produce. In larger club settings they seam to be a good choice when used in addition to standard lighting.FWIW I was even considering 4 of the ADJ X-scans LED Scanners. I may still get them if I decide to integrate full lighting into my rig.

Will they output the same quantity of light an arc bulb scanner will. Hell no but for the smaller 20ft and under stages they will be fine.The dilemma is I can get 250w Discharge Scanners cheaper then the x-scans and now my show is good for small or large stages! That's where the differences lie.

I believe it all comes down to what level you may use your stuff at. Large club level is usually a mixture of MI grade and Pro grade depending on how you are managing your returns on investment.

All were trying to point out is that LEDs are not yet up to Incandescent/arc/discharge capabilities on a cost basis.They will work if deployed correctly.I would also probably choose a LED over a Halogen fixture too.Especially the ELC varieties out there.

Another point to mention. Even if some of these guys are only playing small bars with their bands now doesn't mean that's where they will stay.In this entertainment world especially where bands are concerned you either get stuck in bars or you quickly move beyond to clubs and larger while you ride the wave.

[bzb]

Actually there's quite a few guys here who do medium to large club setups. Were really not talking pro touring rigs at all.The ETC Syd speaks of is a Theater Light which are also used by some guys doing smaller shows.

I sometimes forget there's guys on here that are doing the production end, and not the band members/DJs themselves. I figure most guys here are 1-6 people strong, hence the desire for DIY. I apologize for the assumption - I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers or insult anyone.

Less energy to run them but the rig operator and owner dont ever see those savings passed on so...............

Disagree with this a bit. In the scenario per this thread, the unavoidable happens - only one 20 amp circuit is available. I've had many a gig (remember, I'm a DJ) where there wasn't a separate circuit for me to plug into. I was basically forced to use LED fixtures because of their low power draw, without fear of popping a breaker.

Minuses
Cost per lumen
less output

Initial cost is definitely higher, but LEDs last damn near forever. 30,000-50,000 hours is a lot of gigging. EFR is rated at 500 hours and are $6 each... not that I'd ever see myself having a fixture around for 50,000 hours worth, but the point is you rarely have to service the "lamp".

Will they output the same quantity of light an arc bulb scanner will. Hell no but for the smaller 20ft and under stages they will be fine.The dilemma is I can get 250w Discharge Scanners cheaper then the x-scans and now my show is good for small or large stages! That's where the differences lie.

I agree there. I do not really like any of the LED effects fixtures. On top of that, none of them are truly bright enough... yet.

All were trying to point out is that LEDs are not yet up to Incandescent/arc/discharge capabilities on a cost basis.They will work if deployed correctly.I would also probably choose a LED over a Halogen fixture too.Especially the ELC varieties out there.

This is where we differ, I think. For stage washes for small (up to a few hundred people) gigs, I would always choose LED fixtures over traditional. One Colorstrip does the job of 6 Par 56s. Total brightness will be on the Par side. Coverage should be about equal. Cost ends up about the same after the added expense of gels, extra DMX cables, and power distribution. Bonuses for the Colorstrip are one fixture for color mixing, built in DMX programs, and damn near zero heat so you don't have to wait to tear down.

Another point to mention. Even if some of these guys are only playing small bars with their bands now doesn't mean that's where they will stay.In this entertainment world especially where bands are concerned you either get stuck in bars or you quickly move beyond to clubs and larger while you ride the wave.

Agreed, but if they get that good, they should be hiring one of you guys, not setting lighting up themselves