What's to chat about?

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Grant Bunter
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Re: What's to chat about?

#676 Post by Grant Bunter » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:34 am

SethRocksYou wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:24 pm
In October....
Hey Seth,
Been busy at work, and been meaning to chime in for a couple of days, but no time until now.

Really enjoyed what you wrote, and the response you quoted over at the prosound web, and for me, there's a couple of great points made by Michael, which need to be put in context in regards to Bill's designs.

So, please stick with this a bit, but:
1. Bill's designs, and the consequent SPL (ie response) charts are raw data charts.
That means there is no "colouring" of cab response due to the active module attached to the cab, +/- EQ colouring (eg FOH or monitor with a switch). The cabs that have this are claiming flat response out of the box, and, largely, that's true for them.

2. Because the charts are raw data, and the response levels in dB may be different scales between subs and tops, there is no tilt toward the bottom end. In fact, if you want to work out a entire response graph including subs and tops, you need to extrapolate response from each chart and also factor in reductions based on slope type and severity.

3. This is in no way a negative comment. It is meaningless to include a target response curve unless you include the native response of the cabs the target is for! You can't understand one without the other. Michael categorically stated what his target curve will be, but not the response of the cab(s) in the first place, so you can't understand what he has done (other than if you reverse engineer response based on what he said he tries to do).

4. Does mixer response vary from brand to brand? Sure does.

I applaud you for your interest and research. I do believe though that certain things are absolutes in PA's, and EQing.
You have to know the response of your cabs without room colouring, ie compare expected SPL chart response, to your own measurements outdoors.
You have to end up with a system response that you know and consequently use as a target curve for your system indoors. Invariably, indoors response is dictated by the room. So if you know the outdoors response, you are only changing it based on the room.
Your target response (outdoors) will be what it is, flat. As Michael suggested. Or something else someone suggested.
For me, target response is the native cabs response outdoors, flattened by mirror imaging +/- tweaking by ear. I'm getting better all the time with this. You will too...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: What's to chat about?

#677 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:29 am

Grant Bunter wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:34 am

For me, target response is the native cabs response outdoors, flattened by mirror imaging +/- tweaking by ear. I'm getting better all the time with this. You will too...
My approach originally was to try and run auto-EQ with the "band response" curve. Bump on the bottom, dip around 200-250hz, then a gentle roll off on the highs. I thought I could do this at every venue.....yeah.....not gonna' happen.

So, my approach for the last many years is that same curve, but applied to the system outdoors - establishing what I consider my "flat setting" - the place I want to start. That means my PA is tuned the way I want it in my driverack. I have different "flat" setting saved for my full rig and small rig.

Then I use the EQ on my mixer by ear to adjust for the room once I get there with music. I use a little bit of two or three songs to hear what I want. That gets saved to the mixer by venue for the next time I'm there.

There are exceptions......I picked up a monthly gig about 4 years ago. Knowing we were returning regularly, I spent the time on the first show by EQing the room with the driverack and saving it.

In install situations (like last week when I balanced out and EQed a new QSC line array PA in a local venue), I always start with the "band" curve above using auto-EQ, then do a lot of listening and adjustment to the driverack. Once locked in - I save it and then save save it again as a master way down at the end of the presets - just to have a place to return to should someone screw it up.

But bottom line is, I don't ever set the system flat - because that just sounds like crap to my ear. I'd rather let the system get me most of the way there.

I just mixed a friend of mine's band Tuesday night at a place I'd mixed 'em before so I had their board saved for that venue. Sound check was very quick - I still will check the system with my music before starting with the band. With everything saved from last time, it was just minor tweaking to get it right. It was nice to get back out and make someone sound good.

Doing it again tonight with a different band at a different venue.....this one a QSC line array (not the same venue I referenced above, but the same boxes). There's no driverack, so it will be EQed by ear on my mixer. The drummer's drums are always a great sounding kit, so I'm kinda' excited to get to mix them on a big system tonight.

I'll just have to take into account how the sound is changed by my facemask.... :mrgreen:

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

jimbo7
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Location: St. Louis

Re: What's to chat about?

#678 Post by jimbo7 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:00 pm

New topic:

Just built and used the 4x8 panel jig and omg is it way easier than balancing a sheet on top of sawhorses. Should've made it years ago. Had to make a longer circular saw sled, but 3 clamps and 2x4x8 to hold down the sled was all I needed to rip perfect cuts the full length. No screw holes to be found. Didn't make a cab, but made a bedframe under bed storage drawer thing.

Continue on.
BFM builds:
XF212
T24 BP102 24"
2x SLA's 6-5" mids, 9- gt-302's
2x AT 14" MCM 55-2421
TrT 5" MCM 55-2421
AT 18" JBL GTO804
2x OT12 flat array
2x SLA Pro 2-Alpha 6's 2-Goldwoods
2x T39 24" 3012lf
Simplex 10 BP102

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Tom Smit
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Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: What's to chat about?

#679 Post by Tom Smit » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:13 pm

jimbo7 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:00 pm
New topic:
Didn't make a cab, but made a bedframe under bed storage drawer thing.

Continue on.
But, but, but, that is not a speaker!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Kinda cool how the skills transfer to other projects, right? :clap:
TomS

SethRocksYou
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Re: What's to chat about?

#680 Post by SethRocksYou » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:32 pm

Hey guys, I wasn't really able to respond and chat about the target response curve and EQing over the past week or so. Gonna do a little gig report then jump back into that conversation in a subsequent post.

So, the gig report... completely open for discussion BTW, but am putting it here somewhat for future reference for myself too.

2019 we had some family schedule conflicts and we took the year off and didn't do our usual Labor Day boat raft up concert. Someone else stepped up and carried the tradition on for us. We were going to pass on this year too, but 3 weeks ago my dad decided to join in and do a little collaboration with the guy that did it last year. So, we kind of went into it half cocked. But, it turned out really well.

The other guy "opened" for my dad. Each set was about 50 minutes, total show close to 2 hours. They were both solo acts, singing with guitar and backing tracks.

The PA system was a Behringer XR18 mixer, into a Behringer DEQ2496 (used for feedback suppression only, which worked REALLY well BTW), into an Ashly NE1600PE amplifier powering one shorty 2x6 SLA Pro for center fill and one 16" wide T39 (3012LF loaded), signal processing was handled by the amps built in DSP which also has the option to apply DSP to a pass-through output which I ran a 125Hz high passed signal to 2 QSC K12.2 powered tops which were about 20' apart and splayed outward for wide coverage.

Overall impression is, with the Feedback Destroyer in the EQ, I was (FINALLY) able to get some real good volume out of the tops. That's always been an issue for me in the past, there's just so little space I can put between the mics and the mains in this particular "venue", so it was great to be able to get the volume up this time. I didn't hear anything odd in the speakers. Whatever the FBD did, was completely transparent... to my ears anyways.

Also, I didn't expect the single 16" T39 to perform as well as it did, given it's on the slimmer side and less sensitive than the wider options and there was only one, outdoors with no boundary support. I didn't have concussive chest impact at 50' out, but it did in fact exceed my expectations by a good margin. Smooth clean bass for quite some distance. I may have even had it slightly too hot in relation to the mains, but close enough that it wasn't distracting at all.

Here's a video I found that an audience member posted on YouTube (not anyone I know), I would estimate that the video was taken from about 85' from the sub, and they were slightly off axis of the stage-left speaker and there is that boat with the blue hull between them and the "stage" so you can't even see the performer for most of the video, but the sound in the video is represented fairly. Plenty of low frequency information. This is the "opening act", not my dad.



As the event went on, people had more to drink, had more fun, talked more, and I had to push the system a little harder to keep it comfortably above the ambient noise. To be honest, there was that, but admittedly I also did a little of the rookie deal and pushed a little more and a little more each song too. I gotta not do that in the future. At the end of the show I was running into the limiter on the sub. I have the limiter set to pull down and hold longer the deeper I go into it, so it was pretty obvious (to me) when I was into the limiter, the bass starts to reduce. I don't think the average listener heard anything "wrong" though. Just something I realized.

Very happy with this year's set-up. Especially since we just threw it together and made it happen with the "rehearsal system" and a couple powered tops. I look forward to next year, which I'll have four 30" v-plated T39 to work with. And I'll probably run them with four (for coverage) 4x6 SLA Pro's, if not DR200's.

Also, on load out, I noticed that panel 10 snapped away from the left side of the T39 (looking into the mouth). That's the first side that it was assembled on. The glue bond broke cleanly along the seam from the mouth edge and about 6-8" back. I had the same thing happen in my TAT. Gonna have to figure out a good clean way to repair that. I think in future builds, I'll use screws in that panel, counter sink them deep enough that they wont catch the round-over bit and fill in over the heads. Or maybe put some dowels in or something. Dunno. Open to thoughts on that. Any of you guys have that bottom panel separate from a side too?
Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One 16" T39, 3012LF loaded
20" Tall AutoTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421
8½" TruckTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421

SethRocksYou
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Re: What's to chat about?

#681 Post by SethRocksYou » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:12 pm

Another video I found from someone at the event, my dad singing Sweet Caroline, T39 sounding darn good IMO.

https://www.facebook.com/10000030811735 ... k8Qkc0mzgS

I'm aware of the "no facebook" rule, so if this post disappears I understand. The link goes directly to the video.
Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One 16" T39, 3012LF loaded
20" Tall AutoTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421
8½" TruckTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421

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Tom Smit
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Re: What's to chat about?

#682 Post by Tom Smit » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:04 pm

Both vids sound good from where I am sitting. Kudos.
TomS

SethRocksYou
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Re: What's to chat about?

#683 Post by SethRocksYou » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:23 am

Tom Smit wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:04 pm
Both vids sound good from where I am sitting. Kudos.
Thanks Tom. I've watched them a good number of times and they're not bad, but I've certainly got a few thing's I've identified that are in need of improvement. Granted, the cell phone video's have heavy audio compression... I should have rolled some of the top end off the powered tops. They were a bit overly bright and a tad screamy. I think, partially due to poor EQing and partially distortion from just being pushed a little too hard.
Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One 16" T39, 3012LF loaded
20" Tall AutoTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421
8½" TruckTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7208
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: What's to chat about?

#684 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:13 am

SethRocksYou wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:23 am
Tom Smit wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:04 pm
Both vids sound good from where I am sitting. Kudos.
Thanks Tom. I've watched them a good number of times and they're not bad, but I've certainly got a few thing's I've identified that are in need of improvement. Granted, the cell phone video's have heavy audio compression... I should have rolled some of the top end off the powered tops. They were a bit overly bright and a tad screamy. I think, partially due to poor EQing and partially distortion from just being pushed a little too hard.
Don't let cell phone videos change your EQ......they always sound brighter than reality. If it's good to your ears in real time - trust it.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

SethRocksYou
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Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
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Re: What's to chat about?

#685 Post by SethRocksYou » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:55 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:13 am
SethRocksYou wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:23 am
Tom Smit wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:04 pm
Both vids sound good from where I am sitting. Kudos.
Thanks Tom. I've watched them a good number of times and they're not bad, but I've certainly got a few thing's I've identified that are in need of improvement. Granted, the cell phone video's have heavy audio compression... I should have rolled some of the top end off the powered tops. They were a bit overly bright and a tad screamy. I think, partially due to poor EQing and partially distortion from just being pushed a little too hard.
Don't let cell phone videos change your EQ......they always sound brighter than reality. If it's good to your ears in real time - trust it.
Thanks Bruce. That's good to know. It definitely sounds brighter on the videos than it did in person.
Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One 16" T39, 3012LF loaded
20" Tall AutoTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421
8½" TruckTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7208
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: What's to chat about?

#686 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:03 pm

SethRocksYou wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:55 am
Bruce Weldy wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:13 am
SethRocksYou wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:23 am

Thanks Tom. I've watched them a good number of times and they're not bad, but I've certainly got a few thing's I've identified that are in need of improvement. Granted, the cell phone video's have heavy audio compression... I should have rolled some of the top end off the powered tops. They were a bit overly bright and a tad screamy. I think, partially due to poor EQing and partially distortion from just being pushed a little too hard.
Don't let cell phone videos change your EQ......they always sound brighter than reality. If it's good to your ears in real time - trust it.
Thanks Bruce. That's good to know. It definitely sounds brighter on the videos than it did in person.
I've shot a lot of iPhone videos while mixing and I'm alwaya amazed how well the cymbals and high end come out......cuz' it ain't like that in the loud, booming room! :mrgreen:

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

SethRocksYou
Posts: 1046
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
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Re: What's to chat about?

#687 Post by SethRocksYou » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:39 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:03 pm
I've shot a lot of iPhone videos while mixing and I'm alwaya amazed how well the cymbals and high end come out......cuz' it ain't like that in the loud, booming room! :mrgreen:
To be honest... I was pretty thrilled to get some volume out of the system. But, I wasn't head over heals with the overall SQ and I didn't do anything about it. In hindsight, I was a little too caught up in the win of eliminating feedback that I was almost afraid to "F" with it at all. Cell phone skewing or not, I want better next time. I want to be completely blown away. I want to walk away from the event licking my finger and putting on my behind... tsss. Like my stuff is so hot. What I produced was a win overall. But, it wasn't the level of sound I aspire to create. It was merely good enough.

I want to impress myself next time.
Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One 16" T39, 3012LF loaded
20" Tall AutoTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421
8½" TruckTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7208
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: What's to chat about?

#688 Post by Bruce Weldy » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:19 am

SethRocksYou wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:39 am
Bruce Weldy wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:03 pm
I've shot a lot of iPhone videos while mixing and I'm alwaya amazed how well the cymbals and high end come out......cuz' it ain't like that in the loud, booming room! :mrgreen:
To be honest... I was pretty thrilled to get some volume out of the system. But, I wasn't head over heals with the overall SQ and I didn't do anything about it. In hindsight, I was a little too caught up in the win of eliminating feedback that I was almost afraid to "F" with it at all. Cell phone skewing or not, I want better next time. I want to be completely blown away. I want to walk away from the event licking my finger and putting on my behind... tsss. Like my stuff is so hot. What I produced was a win overall. But, it wasn't the level of sound I aspire to create. It was merely good enough.

I want to impress myself next time.
Ha! I totally understand. I've been in that situation too. Sometimes you can fix it, sometimes you can't.

Years ago, I was mixing a three piece rock band that I worked with in a club in a small town. We'd never been there before and the room was atrocious. I struggled with trying to get it to sound something close to acceptable. As far as I was concerned it sucked. I even apologized to the band after sound check about how bad it sounded.

Anyway, we start the show and this guy who is the regular DJ there shows up halfway into the first set, listens a few minutes and makes a beeline straight to me......he says, "Wow, that's the best any band has ever sounded in here!" While I was grateful that it wasn't just me, I still had to listen to my mix for another couple of hours in that horrific room......we never went back there.....

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

SethRocksYou
Posts: 1046
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Re: What's to chat about?

#689 Post by SethRocksYou » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:54 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:19 am


Ha! I totally understand. I've been in that situation too. Sometimes you can fix it, sometimes you can't.

Years ago, I was mixing a three piece rock band that I worked with in a club in a small town. We'd never been there before and the room was atrocious. I struggled with trying to get it to sound something close to acceptable. As far as I was concerned it sucked. I even apologized to the band after sound check about how bad it sounded.

Anyway, we start the show and this guy who is the regular DJ there shows up halfway into the first set, listens a few minutes and makes a beeline straight to me......he says, "Wow, that's the best any band has ever sounded in here!" While I was grateful that it wasn't just me, I still had to listen to my mix for another couple of hours in that horrific room......we never went back there.....
Bruce,

I really enjoy your gig stories. If you've got more you'd like to share, I'd love to hear (read) them. Not only are they entertaining reading material, I always learn something. For instance, I never would have thought a room could be that bad. In the same situation, I probably would be pulling my hair out (what's left of it anyway) going through all my settings trying to figure out what I wasn't doing right or what setting has mistakenly been changed. That's the type of story that gives me a little insight and a leg up in this whole endeavor and I really appreciate being able to glean these valuable little bits of knowledge from your experience.

Thanks for that Bruce.
Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One 16" T39, 3012LF loaded
20" Tall AutoTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421
8½" TruckTuba loaded with 2 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7208
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: What's to chat about?

#690 Post by Bruce Weldy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:23 pm

SethRocksYou wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:54 am
Bruce Weldy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:19 am


Ha! I totally understand. I've been in that situation too. Sometimes you can fix it, sometimes you can't.

Years ago, I was mixing a three piece rock band that I worked with in a club in a small town. We'd never been there before and the room was atrocious. I struggled with trying to get it to sound something close to acceptable. As far as I was concerned it sucked. I even apologized to the band after sound check about how bad it sounded.

Anyway, we start the show and this guy who is the regular DJ there shows up halfway into the first set, listens a few minutes and makes a beeline straight to me......he says, "Wow, that's the best any band has ever sounded in here!" While I was grateful that it wasn't just me, I still had to listen to my mix for another couple of hours in that horrific room......we never went back there.....
Bruce,

I really enjoy your gig stories. If you've got more you'd like to share, I'd love to hear (read) them. Not only are they entertaining reading material, I always learn something. For instance, I never would have thought a room could be that bad. In the same situation, I probably would be pulling my hair out (what's left of it anyway) going through all my settings trying to figure out what I wasn't doing right or what setting has mistakenly been changed. That's the type of story that gives me a little insight and a leg up in this whole endeavor and I really appreciate being able to glean these valuable little bits of knowledge from your experience.

Thanks for that Bruce.
The stage was built into a corner - which I typically like a lot. That gets rid of the parallel wall reflections. But, they hadn't deadened the wall at all....the snare drum came out of that corner like a sonic boom. I had it totally out of the mix and it was still too loud - and we were cranking.

Had the same issue with a venue here in town where I've been tuning up their system for a few years. Fortunately, the owner there listened to me and finally deadened the walls behind the band on stage.

The first show I mixed in there after he did that was night and day - it sounded so much better and I had so much more control. Plus, it was way better for the band too. If more venues would just bring in someone to consult on sound before they build out - it would make a world of difference in their venue. So many little things they can do that will make a huge difference in the listening experience for the audience and the band.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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