upstarts needing amp info.

Is this amp OK?
Message
Author
CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#31 Post by CoronaOperator »

Grant Bunter wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:48 pm 2 x DR250 and 4 x T30 isn't a bad place to start IMHO

The great thing is, you could build that, and if you find it isn't enough, you can add more...
+1 , that is a good system to get you going to start with. 2 top and 4 subs works out well for EDM as seen here:

That system can handle 150 people indoors for EDM very well.

By balanced I mean the limiters on the 2 tops and 4 subs pretty much come on at the same time, neither outruns the others. EDM is typically run +6 db's hotter on the subs than for top40 dance music, hence the 1:2 ratio. Outdoors you could use more subs but up close you will still get a very good experience. Last couple shows I've been using 2 DR250's with 2 double 18's getting 3000w and for EDM and we run out of subs way before the tops. For EDM, I'm absolutely positive you will need 4 subs to start. That hug the subwoofer feeling in EDM starts around 132 dB's @ 50hz.

The T45 and T30 is pretty much the same cab just a different layout. The T45 would be easier to move because these cabinets have built in wheels so the cabinet becomes a handcart. With the shorter T30, you would be bent over wheeling them around, the taller T45 would be easier on the back. Just something to think about.

For generators you will want to use an inverter generator like these ones. They are expensive but very quiet and work well electrically with audio equipment. Cheap construction generators are loud and don't react well to the changing loads that audio presents, the engine can't speed up and slow down fast enough on the drum beats. If you can find power within 100', I'd go with that but use a 10 guage extension cord. These systems are very efficient, you only need 1 outlet and will still have some power available for some LED lighting.
Last edited by CoronaOperator on Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

ACUA
Posts: 552
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Tucson Arizona

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#32 Post by ACUA »

It took me a while to learn my lesson as well. I have been here for over 2 years I have read everything twice. I still only grasp the basic concepts of horn loaded loud speakers. My general sound knowledge is pretty versed and broad though by now and honestly this forum has some of the best content I know. Not perfect but stick around and you will get the right stuff.

I second everyone’s emphasis that you don’t need tuba60s. You don’t need those and the loss of efficiency is not with the bragging rights. I built 4 tuba45s and wish I would have built 4 titan48 cabs. If you trust this place enough to be here trust all of it. A 15” driver in these horns is no better than dual 12” drivers actually you get more output with a dual 12” cab, so it is going to be better. None of the typical rules really apply with these horns as far as looking at driver t&s specs and the like.

One important thing about these loudspeaker designs is the scalability of them. You can start with one cab and always build more, then couple them together (by design) For a huge benefit.

Based on the money you are talking about investing and your liking to hot hot sauce, you are going to want to build using premium drivers. Even it it financially restricts your initial build it will pay off in the end.

Those DR cabinets are no joke I’m not man enough to build them I hope your skills are better than mine!!!
Advanced Concepts Underground Audio

ACUA
Posts: 552
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Tucson Arizona

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#33 Post by ACUA »

As I sit here thinking about it, based on the energy you have been putting into this discussion and your strong desire to do this complicated diy professional audio thing I would recommend the “Yamaha sound reinforcement hand book” as a good read and long term reference. It’s a little dated but most is still relevant.
Advanced Concepts Underground Audio

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#34 Post by Nancy B »

We understand that Tuba 45's would be better than Tuba 30's. Thanks for the clarity. :) This will save us in the end.

Corona, what seems unclear to us is this statement:
Last couple shows I've been using 2 DR250's with 2 double 18's getting 3000w and for EDM and we run out of subs way before the tops. For EDM, I'm absolutely positive you will need 4 subs to start.
What does it mean to run out of subs? And how does this relate to determining as to whether we should use 4 Tuba 45's or 2 Tuba 60's double loaded Lab 12's? We're listening, we'll probably purchase plans and build four Tuba 45's but why did you switch to 12 Tuba 60's Lab 12's? What's the dis/advantage for one option versus the other?

Thank you for pointing out to us which generators we ought to use!
Last edited by Nancy B on Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#35 Post by CoronaOperator »

Nancy B wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:06 pm
What does it mean to run out of subs? Thank you for pointing out to us which generators we ought to use!
It means we couldn't go any louder because the subs were at their limits. The DR250's were not, they still had some room to go louder. So if we wanted to go louder we would have to bring more subs next time, not more tops.

That is what I mean about balance, their is no reason to have 20 tops unless you have the right amount of subs to match their level.
Last edited by CoronaOperator on Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#36 Post by Nancy B »

OK. Got it! Thanks!

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#37 Post by CoronaOperator »

I feel like posting some videos to give you an Idea of what these boxes are capable of:

Here is 4 tops, 4 subs (2 dual) 1:1 ratio:


This is a great ratio for Top40 dance music but is a little lacking for EDM, I would really like 1 or 2 more dual subs. Any weirdness is the audio is just my phone adjusting to the volume levels, they are crystal clear up close and far away.

Here is the same system for HipHop, this is full on concert level volumes as ... it's a concert! (200 people)


Now if you really want to get crazy, how about 4 DR250's just for monitors? Those are called texas headphones :chainsaw:


Always great comments on the sound from the artists.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#38 Post by Nancy B »

Open question:
I built 4 tuba45s and wish I would have built 4 titan48 cabs.
Advantages versus disadvantages to 4 Tuba 45's versus 4 Titan 48's, anyone?

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#39 Post by Nancy B »

Okay. It seems to us that we're talking about Tuba 60's again. And six to eight Tuba 60 Lab 12's? :confused:

What are the dis/advantages of Tuba 45's versus Titan 48's? :roll:

We're just in need of some consistent answers to reestablish grounds to making the right (informed) decision.

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#40 Post by CoronaOperator »

Like was mentioned, start off with a basic system, then build more after you get a feel for them.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#41 Post by Nancy B »

Top comments from the artists, no doubt! :clap: What's a basic system??

1:1? 2:1? 3:1? 4:1? Tuba 45? Titan 48's? Tuba 60 dual loaded Lab 12's?

We don't know.

But 2 DR 250's on each side sound great! :)

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#42 Post by CoronaOperator »

Nancy B wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:07 pm
What are the dis/advantages of Tuba 45's versus Titan 48's? :roll:
The titans trade off some low frequency sensitivity (output) in order to go really, really loud at higher frequencies where the kick drum and bass guitar live. They are more suited for live bands.

Tubas give up some of that higher frequency energy in order to have more output down low where pre-recorded bass lines usually are.

For EDM the tubas are where you want to be as their bass lines are usually down lower.

Yes 2 DR250's a side sounds great, 1 a side sounds great too!
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#43 Post by Nancy B »

Alright. Nix the Titans. By the way, have you heard of chap-hop before?? It might be fun to feature a chap-hop show for fizzes and giggles (a gag night.)

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/TheScien ... -chap-hop/

:mrgreen:

User avatar
Tom Smit
Posts: 7457
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#44 Post by Tom Smit »

Welcome to the forum Nancy, and Richard. As you have found out, there is a lot of good advice here, and readily available. :)
May I suggest that you go ahead with a pair of DR250 tops, and a pair of Tuba45 subs. Use the premium drivers for both (3012LF or Lab12 in the subs, doesn't matter since the result will be the same). Then tune your system and run it. If you need more, build more.

You will need DSP between your mixer and the amps, and the models have already been covered.

As far as amps go, non-T, H, D amps are preferred for the subs. The tops don't mind the non-iron amps. (opposites. Did you get that? :) ) Having about 150% of the wattage needed is a good thing because it will allow your amps to remain cool, and, you would be limiting the amps, using DSP, to protect your subs.
TomS

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#45 Post by Nancy B »

Grant Bunter wrote:
2 x DR250 and 4 x T30 isn't a bad place to start IMHO

The great thing is, you could build that, and if you find it isn't enough, you can add more...
Corona wrote:
+1 , that is a good system to get you going to start with. 2 top and 4 subs works out well for EDM as seen here:

That system can handle 150 people indoors for EDM very well.
Established.
Corona wrote*: By balanced I mean the limiters on the 2 tops and 4 subs pretty much come on at the same time, neither outruns the others. EDM is typically run +6 db's hotter on the subs than for top40 dance music, hence the 1:2 ratio.
Good to know. Will probably come in handy, later, or just a fact to remember.


Outdoors you could use more subs but up close you will still get a very good experience. 2 x DR250's seem pretty fine to us right now, so do 2 x T30's..
.
That's what we want: up close.
Last couple shows I've been using 2 DR250's with 2 double 18's getting 3000w and for EDM and we run out of subs way before the tops.
Check, your shows bigger than what we'll be needing... AND BUMPING!!! ... makes sense: Tuba 30's seem fine and dandy. :)

and

:idea: :?: But wait. :confused: What's the pro's versus con's between 2 dual Lab 12 Tuba 60's and 4 Lab 30's/45's?
For EDM, I'm absolutely positive you will need 4 subs to start.
:idea: :?: Following up the confused question above, are you saying 4 dual Lab 12 Tuba 60's or 4 Tuba 30's when you're saying "4 subs."
That hug the subwoofer feeling in EDM starts around 132 dB's @ 50hz.
Good to know, Richard always wanted to know where the frequency Hz. This will come in handy. We will remember this!
The T45 and T30 is pretty much the same cab just a different layout. The T45 would be easier to move because these cabinets have built in wheels so the cabinet becomes a handcart. With the shorter T30, you would be bent over wheeling them around, the taller T45 would be easier on the back. Just something to think about.
So ... we're figuring you still mean four T45's and not four dual Lab 12 T60's? (sorry, Bill, this just had to be asked "one more time.") So, it's 4 Lab 45's, we've followed your train of thought to the logical conclusion.
:hyper: :hyper:

For generators you will want to use an inverter generator like these ones. They are expensive but very quiet and work well electrically with audio equipment. Cheap construction generators are loud and don't react well to the changing loads that audio presents, the engine can't speed up and slow down fast enough on the drum beats. If you can find power within 100', I'd go with that but use a 10 guage extension cord. These systems are very efficient, you only need 1 outlet and will still have some power available for some LED lighting.


Bingo bango.

:fruit:

*all quote's Corona's

Post Reply