upstarts needing amp info.

Is this amp OK?
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CoronaOperator
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#16 Post by CoronaOperator »

The best part of this group is that we want you to succeed on your venture, that's why we are asking 100 questions BEFORE you start building ... and Grant is right, these designs kick the crap out of MOST commercial offerings. The ones that can compete have price tags like this: https://www.gearsource.com/catalog/stoc ... solution4t, btw that covers the tops, you would still need subs and amps. Oh ya, thats a used price tag.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#17 Post by Nancy B »

Hi Grant and Corona,
If, after some discussion, you decide you don't need T60's, but another design, the premium option driver for that cab may have different amplifier requirements. See where we're going now?
Absolutely! From idealism to concrete practicality and realism! We like that. Richard and I can readily admit that neither of understand the principles of creating a "balance" for outdoor or indoor sound for EDM!

We're wondering...
Grant:
Consolidating to date so far:
Outdoors subs to tops ratio is 2:1, not 3:1
CO:
for EDM, yes 3:1 if not 4:1 outdoors ... for full on concert volume levels, for lower levels less would be fine.
At what point does capacity reach a full on concert level? My mind would be blown that if for the first time we would have more than 250 people! We're thinking to downscale to four Lab 300's ... the reason being:

We cast the net far and wide for our wedding and we had about just over 110 people and that's people of all ages. Many of these would feel uncomfortable to dance to EDM, or at all, but some people, young and older did.

The small children enjoyed it the most with our lit up disco ball, they made the party really worth our while. Richard warmed up with Deep Funk (The Incredible Bongo Band,) Electro (Planet Rock,) P. Funk (Atomic Dog,) and and taught a bit as to how to DJ. He made the older kids-at-heart who like classic hop smile; Richard's +50 year old brother said the tunes were from his time so all around it was a lively party.

At our wedding Richard rented out a morning suit! :mrgreen:

Everyone who came to the party room enjoyed his music.

A young lady who usually likes to play her harp and recorder, acoustic guitar, and probably mandolin, and loves classical/medieval music, and so is not an EDM fan by any stretch of the imagination came to the floor. She danced with her husband to Deep Blue's Helicopter Tune (Rufige Cru Remix.) She said that it was like dancing to fast rock ... so they had smiles on their faces when they left and we had our vacation house sitting their very nice apartment while they went to England for some matters.

This couple happens to be the pair who on one side their family owns the farm we're planning to host these events. Few months prior Hannah suggested that we could have events at her father-in-law's farm, so this seems to be the trajectory we're going and it seems as if it's working out!

Back to the speaker business:

With 250 people, max, are two DR 250's and four Tuba 30 Lab 12's okay outside? We need the ideal but we don't know what that is. Hence we're shooting in the dark when it comes to the specs.

We've invested in the music, so by all means, our greatest desire when it comes to project is to entertain guests with the highest caliber. We don't want to melt people or turn them to jello, though the thought of that is surrealistically interesting ... haha ... with 250 people we're not expecting concert sizes and we don't want to make anyone feel sick.

Anyone care to share their amp recommendations? You guys are really are making us think before we commit. We welcome more questions! At this point we really don't know the difference between parallel and series wiring, but your suggestions are welcome nevertheless for the right rectangular box and we are grateful that we're not going to lug around, short or long distances, Tuba 60's. Those are some huge boxes your friend has Corona.
Last edited by Nancy B on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

Grant Bunter
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#18 Post by Grant Bunter »

2 x DR250 and 4 x T30 isn't a bad place to start IMHO

The great thing is, you could build that, and if you find it isn't enough, you can add more...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#19 Post by Nancy B »

Neat. That's settled, we think... still waiting on CO's opinion. :)

What's the size differential between an optimum Tuba 30 Lab 12 and Tuba 60 Lab 15?
We've got both plans and thought its mostly settled, we're still tossing around the idea.

What best performance for 250 people, near-field speakers, outdoors: four Tuba 30 Lab 12's vs four/EIGHT Tuba 60 Lab 15's ... any final thoughts? No jello people or mushy brains please! Richard's ambitions seem to be seeping through in this question, we've been lovingly wrestling (not arguing) about this all day. Sorry for the irritation this may cause.

Both of you guys have said, in one way or another, four Tuba 30's are not bad. :) Richard said, "not bad, but what's best." He's a stubborn Bornyi and I love him. It seems I'm always interrogating you guys ... just asking for my husband's peace of mind!

:horse: :fruit:

If both of saying four Tuba 30 Lab 12's are best for 250 people for BASS HEAVY EDM , near-field, we're in! :hyper: We have the plans both & plans for the Table Tuba & TLAH! Building can commence soon. We hope for pics to come your way soon too!

I read and reread this thread's post one by one. I never ever meant to sound like a smarty about all the misc. about golden ears and what have you. Just handing down some knowledge that we learned. :)

CO your first post was thorough and so it was important: we didn't see one of your statements as a possible question. These outdoor parties will probably most likely be powered by a generator. We might just get a very long extension cord extending from Hannah's father in law's home but most likely one or more ("sketchy power") generators with " decent DSP, good limiter, xover, and decent EQ," "to run these speakers."

What we'll probably build:
FOUR TUBA 30'S LAB 12 + 2 DR 250 (STEREO) - extension cord
FOUR TUBA 30'S LAB 12 + 2 DR 250 (STEREO) - generator

What we want to build:
EIGHT TUBA 60'S LAB 15 + 2 DR 250 (STEREO) - extension cord
EIGHT TUBA 60'S LAB 15 + 2 DR 250 (STEREO) - generator

Or should we build??
EIGHT TUBA 30'S LAB 12 + 2 DR 250 (STEREO) - extension cord
EIGHT TUBA 30'S LAB 12 + 2 DR 250 (STEREO) - generator

As for the Table Tuba's and TLAH we'll get to that later!

We're both wishing both of you well and that you're having fun discovering new music from links we've posted! ... if you have the time to enjoy styles you don't know about.

Respectfully,

Nancy & Richard Bornyi

p.s. To put it into context, I like Frank's Hot Sauce and Richard likes the hottest sauces available. I'll probably live to a hundred. I am afraid that one day my Richard's going to burn a hole through his stomach or have a heart attack! The same goes with the question above ... Richard likes to say, "everything in moderation, including moderation." :chainsaw: :noob: :lol: :wall: :wink:

Grant Bunter
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#20 Post by Grant Bunter »

Best to avoid long extension leads. Under heavy load they may melt/get hot/catch fire.
I would (and do) use one to say a maximum of 100ft (but the load on it is very low). Even then, I remain leery of available power at the business end, as long cables lose power over distance.
Better to have a larger generator that runs all the cabs/amps/etc.

What's your definition of near field?
Sound drops off at a rate of -6dB for every doubling of distance. So if a sound system is at 120dB at 1 yard, it is, at best, 90dB at 32 yards.

Given the larger bolder bass heavy EDM text lol, build T60's.

Just so you know though, the T30 is 30 x 30" in height and depth for each side, cab width is determined by the builder.

Having said that, if you don't have to move these cabs, build them as wide as dictated in the plans to maximise output (that applies to all Bill's sub designs).
And, if you go with 8 x T60's (2 x lab12's per cab is better bang than 1 x lab15 per cab), I would build 4 x DR250's.
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Nancy B
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#21 Post by Nancy B »

Got it! Thanks for the info. about the extension chords. As Smokey the Bear says, "only [we] can prevent forest fires"! :)

Well, Richard's definition of near-field is a bit mysterious and kooky/abstract:

"Speaker (uhm...) hugging, without having your: 1. ears bursting/damaging permanently (ouchy/deafy) 2. your body's internal organs turning to mush (ooky), 3. your brain becoming scrambled (oozy), 4. but really enjoying the experience of hugging your speaker (subwoofer) for the feeling that comes from the output loving you up (yummy, warming huggy.) 5. All of the above at maximum threshold before having to start crossing the verge into insanity." We're serious as we can be though about that one. :lol:

We're both happy that you agree that Tuba 60's are the way to go! :)

There are a few difficulties have arisen. A bit of a disconnection here, because CO said a few words previously that made us pause and wonder that something wasn't measuring up.
Most genres 2:1 outdoors is enough but for EDM, yes 3:1 if not 4:1 outdoors
DR250's go really loud and are the cleanest sounding box I have ever heard. To match up with the tops for most styles of music a 1:1 top to sub ratio is advised indoors, 1:2 ratio outdoors. Even with the higher output lab15 T60, the DR's would still outrun your proposed ratios, 2 of my DR250's can outrun 2 double 18's with a 3000w amp on them. For EDM I would double the sub to top ratio, 4 tuba subs for 2 tops indoors, 8 subs for 2 tops outdoors.
This is a buddy of mines outdoor system, 4 Otop 12's with 6 dual lab12 T60's. He uses this for EDM and is happy with the balance. Understand that this is for concert level sounds. For 250 people up close this will full on melt your face and turn your body to jello
According to Corna's advice of how to balance these things out, and Bill's specs when it comes to the hardware, united with your expertise, 2 DR 250's = (x) Tuba Lab 15's? 'Cause die hard hot sauce Richard would rather have more Tuba 60 Lab 15's than less dual Lab 12's ... why ... we would rather have deeper booms and laser sine wave bombs than bang for our buck and we're sticking with the Tuba Lab 15's, not moving elsewhere!

BASS
LAB 15
Specification
Nominal Basket Diameter 15", 381 mm
Nominal Impedance* 6 Ω
Power Rating*
Program Power 1200 W
Watts 600 W
Resonance 28 Hz
Usable Frequency Range 20 Hz - 0.1 kHz
Sensitivity* 88.5 dB
BASS

LESS BASS
LAB 12
Specification
Nominal Basket Diameter 12", 305 mm
Nominal Impedance* 6 Ω
Power Rating*
Program Power 800 W
Watts 400 W
Resonance 22 Hz
Usable Frequency Range 25 Hz - 0.1 kHz
Sensitivity* 89.2 dB
LESS BASS

Richard wants the Lab 15's ... we know that we already went through this, but his dj controller has a soundcard that plays down to 20 Hz as well. He wants to maximize on every last sine-wave going as low as they can go, even if it's just a few songs... even still; with 100,200+ tunes, then even if it's 99.99% if tunes that don't go down that low, there are a lot of tunes that do! So I am standing with him on this decision.

Corna's balance is heavier on the subs than your's, that's for sure. We respect both of your opinions but for the sake of this discussion and to get the final answer, let's stick with Corna's numbers.

If we want to keep it the tops at just 2 DR 250's and add Corna's logic, what do you suggest for Tuba 60 Lab 15's if we'd want to appease Corona's numbers as outlined above and Richard's definition of "near-field?"

We want an up-close (physically/spatially-geographically) and personal parties. Having said that, bass how low can we go in booming in the faces of our 250 closest friends with all these criterion in check, optimally designed for 250 people outdoors but probably 75 to 115 max for the first year with these Lab 15's?

And after you give us the final answer :fingers: would you, could you, please tell us the best amp and other stuff needed while we draw our electricity from sketchy but big generators - powering the whole kit and kaboodle in stereo sound :fingers: ?
:fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit: :fruit:

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#22 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Reality check: The T30 goes as low as you need. It goes as low as almost anyone needs. The T60 only exists because no matter what I or anyone else here says there are those who think they need a cab that goes lower than the T30, and nothing will convince them otherwise. Fine, I make the same $14.95 either way.

Richard seems obsessed with the idea that a fifteen inch driver will work better than a twelve. It won't. All of the figures you posted mean zilch, zip, nada once the drivers are mounted in enclosures. If you do decide to go T60 you should load it with two LAB 12, not one LAB 15. Here again, why is the LAB 15 even an option? Frankly because of people like Richard. No offense. So there it is. From the standpoint of both bang for the buck and output per cubic foot of cabinet space the T30 is the better choice.

Nancy B
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#23 Post by Nancy B »

Wow, from the founder developer of the designs himself! Thanks for clarifying! Salute! We're grateful that you spoke up when you did!

Peace to my Richard, now he knows better and he accepts truth/reality check as an opportunity to grow. Peace to you, Bill. Peace to Grant Bunter and Corona Operator, too; they went through this thread like warriors.. Thanks for chiming into this conversation and changing the face of the speaker business.

Now, speaking about business: down to it!

We know that Grant Bunter, Corona Operator have differing opinions of tops to sub choice, and you just gave us a slap behind the head...

Given all the different ratios we're pretty very confused about what we NEED!

Bill, as founder and curator and pro-expert on your own speaker designs, given what we wrote in the early morning, what is the right ratio, or "golden cut/ratio," between 2 DR 250's and Tuba 30's for the most bass of bass heavy sound applications for 250 people who will be very close to speakers at outdoor all night parties?' Trivial, or not, that this is post #23 ...

All we want is to do our very best for our guests. I know you guys that by now.

Richard was always concerned about the frequency Hz not because he's trying to be the Macho Man but because he wants to give THE BEST to his audience for their own fun and pleasure. He's a natural entertainer. He likes making people smile. We're apologetic because we perceive (wrongly?/rightly?) that Chagrin Falls has fallen here and we needed correction. We honestly apologize because we caused any anger or frustration or upset in your days and nights, we don't want to cause any turbulence or dissonance,; that's the exact opposite of he, and we, stand for! We are trying to walk the way of perfect balance with as much strength as we can give in all we do in our interactions, and this includes how we wish to play our sounds.

We hope you can accept that as kindly as your correction and this statement of apology goes to all of you.

Nancy & Richard Bornyi

p.s. We still need info. as to how how to find out what amps we need to run off generators with " with decent DSP, good limiters, xovers, decents EQ," "for these speakers." We aren't trying to be inane but we probably sound so but we're just trying to get off the ground! We are the upstarts.
Last edited by Nancy B on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:58 pm, edited 9 times in total.

mj90210
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#24 Post by mj90210 »

Great information and advice posted above. My unsolicited, partially uneducated advice would be: Unless you or audience knows, appreciates, and has ability to play sub 30hz, don't fret over the building a box with that extension. I will add that is seems more EDM producers of all genres are making more music with sub 30hz content(future thought). I will ditto what CO says about sound quality of BFM designs, specifically DR's and Tubas, they are absolutely unreal, especially for the cost. As far as ratio for tops to subs I think it is more of a question of top coverage. I would be calculating the physical size of your listening areas/crowd size and backing into number of tops needed based on output and dispersion. A pair of DR's easily have enough output for a small group of people bellied up to the subs as long as they are splayed and aimed correctly. In short, build as many subs as you can and then fill in the tops as needed.
Thank You All for Your Time!!...Really!

Built:
2xDR300's
4xDual-30” Tuba 60’s
Simplex 21" Eminence NSW6021
1x20” THT
TLAH‘S
SLA Center-9 driver and Surrounds
SLA pros
TrT 10" Driver-10" Wide
Auto Tuba 10" Driver

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#25 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

I'd start with a 1:1 top to sub ratio. You won't know what you need until you use the system. If you need more of one or the other you can build more. As for the amps, no amp will work well with a bad generator, and any amp should work well with a good generator.

Nancy B
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#26 Post by Nancy B »

Bill, thank you for your honest response and answers.

"Chagrin Falls on our heads not in a gush but maddening droplets...":
I will add that is seems more EDM producers of all genres are making more music with sub 30hz content(future thought).
:roll: how are we to understand this ... given what's just been at this time vis. sub of choice ... ? :roll:
No more challenging, just trying to for better, fuller, and more fleshed out understanding, right??!

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#27 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Movie directors and producers are putting more and more sub 30Hz content in film tracks too. You won't hear or feel it in theaters, because the size and cost of the systems required to reproduce it in large spaces is prohibitive. It's not a problem to reproduce it in rooms small enough for cabin gain to fill in not only down to 20Hz but down to 10Hz or less. That means rooms where the longest room dimension is no more than perhaps 20 feet: home theaters, not real theaters.

Grant Bunter
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#28 Post by Grant Bunter »

We know that Grant Bunter, Corona Operator have differing opinions of tops to sub choice
Let's explain that.
CO is way more familiar with the real world requirements of reproducing EDM via a PA system than I am. Experience in that field has left him with his recommendation of a ratio of 3 or 4:1 subs to tops.
My experience is different, more live music outdoors, and DJing various (non EDM genre) material. But I still know the minimum recommended sub:tops ratio is 2:1 outdoors.
That's why our recommendations differ a little.
Bill has now suggested kicking off with a 1:1 ratio. It's only as time continues, and your experience in running such systems increases, that you may decide you want or need more. If it turns out "no", you haven't wasted time effort and money.

Why then did I suggest 2 x D250 per side? Not to alter the subs:tops ratio.
Simply because they sound better in pairs. Smoother. And a couple of other reasons.
Don't suddenly think this means you need 8 subs or more, because you can turn down your tops (we can tell you more about that later when you start asking how to run these systems lol), so they are just cruising.

What Bill has said about T30's being adequate more often than not, is the reason I suggested that "audacity" (or something like it) be used to examine bass content.
I recommend this once again. Not every song your going to play, just say the three of four most bass heavy songs in your playlists.
Why? Then you know what you need, not think what you need for subs.

Welcome to the hardest part of this entire process, deciding what you need, in order to do what you want to do.
This is critical.
You never want to second guess your informed choice. If you aren't happy with your choice, you'll never be happy with the result...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#29 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Audacity will reveal what's there, but that doesn't mean you should try to reproduce everything that's there. If your system is in a living room where you get a fair amount of cabin gain it's an achievable goal. If your system is in a car, where cabin gain is huge, it's a very easily achieved goal. In a large room it's difficult, and outdoors it's next to impossible.
As to my 1:1 recommendation, to be more clear I'd start with two of each, then add to either the mains or the subs or both until you get what you want.

Nancy B
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Re: upstarts needing amp info.

#30 Post by Nancy B »

8)

You guys are cool.

We're actually quite relieved by understanding the nuances of why ratios were chosen and how they will effect our performances now that you're opening up that information to us. We'll think about it some more but now it's become clear. We're grateful for the clarity and hope that the clarity is neither illusory nor that there's more to know to make this most critical decision of ours.

... is there?

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