iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

Is this amp OK?
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Grymer
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iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#1 Post by Grymer » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:42 pm

Hi

When running 4 T48s and 4 DR250. Will there be a difference quality-wise between these amps?

- iNuke NU6000. (one for DR and one for T48)

- Crown XLI 3500 (again one for each)

Looking at the specs. The iNuke is super light and has more wattage. But will I experience a difference quality wise? Should I maybe mix them up. Crown for DR and iNuke for T48?

I'm gonna run these with a DriveRack PA2

Thanks a lot!
4 Titan48 19" - Kappalite 3015LF

Copenhagen, Denmark

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dswpro
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Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#2 Post by dswpro » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:19 pm

Switching mode (class D) amps like the iNukes do NOT provide a continuous stream of steady high power output, as others have documented, so it depends on your program material and expectations. They do fine for me, but if I had to deliver high volume EDM I would use the crown.
(At 40+ lbs I am guessing the Crown is NOT a class D (switching mode) power amp. ) Nobody I know every got fired for buying Crown amps.

Myself, I use switching mode amps b/c weight is more important to me than continuous EDM bass content.
Mostly my Titan 39s are amplifying country or funk. I have TWO Peavey IPR3000, and an iNuke 3000 and all have done well for me.

CoronaOperator
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Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#3 Post by CoronaOperator » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:53 pm

The iNuke NU6000 puts out ~97 volts per channel, way too much power for the DR250's if you are using the 2510's. The iNuke NU4-6000 (4 channel) puts out ~49 volts per channel. That is a better fit for your 4 DR250's and then each cab would have it's own amp channel. Or you could go with the iNuke NU3000 for the DR250's which also puts out ~49 volts per channel but is a 2 channel amp.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Grant Bunter
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Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
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Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#4 Post by Grant Bunter » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:27 pm

Not sure what the price differential is where you are between the 2, but the Berry's are less than half the price of the Crowns here in Australia.
So if budget is an issue, go with the Berry's. You get 2 for 1. The caveat is as dswpro has stated, it depends on content.

For a long time Behringer has had issues associated with various of their products. Their amps seem to have held up pretty well, but their output figures as quoted in their own literature are questionable.
We're fortunate in that we do have some real world output figures due to users here in the forum.

If budget is not so much an issue, and you have the ability to lift heavier amp racks, go with the Crowns...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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BrentEvans
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Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#5 Post by BrentEvans » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:32 pm

CoronaOperator wrote:The iNuke NU6000 puts out ~97 volts per channel, way too much power for the DR250's if you are using the 2510's. The iNuke NU4-6000 (4 channel) puts out ~49 volts per channel. That is a better fit for your 4 DR250's and then each cab would have it's own amp channel. Or you could go with the iNuke NU3000 for the DR250's which also puts out ~49 volts per channel but is a 2 channel amp.
Theoretically. At those voltages it can't really sustain power long enough to matter. While you can technically get the amps to do that kind of voltage output, in order to compare them, they need to be derated by 50% power (cut the watts in half, not the volts). I've used enough of them now to know, believe me. I use them in installs, they sound good, are pretty quiet, etc, but "Behringer Watts" is really a thing, in my book. 1 Behringer Watt = 0.5 real watts.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

CoronaOperator
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Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#6 Post by CoronaOperator » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:36 pm

BrentEvans wrote:
CoronaOperator wrote:The iNuke NU6000 puts out ~97 volts per channel, way too much power for the DR250's if you are using the 2510's. The iNuke NU4-6000 (4 channel) puts out ~49 volts per channel. That is a better fit for your 4 DR250's and then each cab would have it's own amp channel. Or you could go with the iNuke NU3000 for the DR250's which also puts out ~49 volts per channel but is a 2 channel amp.
Theoretically. At those voltages it can't really sustain power long enough to matter. While you can technically get the amps to do that kind of voltage output, in order to compare them, they need to be derated by 50% power (cut the watts in half, not the volts). I've used enough of them now to know, believe me. I use them in installs, they sound good, are pretty quiet, etc, but "Behringer Watts" is really a thing, in my book. 1 Behringer Watt = 0.5 real watts.
What are wattss? :noob:

Those voltages are measured under load by myself playing sine waves into my cabinets.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6407
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#7 Post by Bruce Weldy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:55 pm

CoronaOperator wrote:
BrentEvans wrote:
CoronaOperator wrote:The iNuke NU6000 puts out ~97 volts per channel, way too much power for the DR250's if you are using the 2510's. The iNuke NU4-6000 (4 channel) puts out ~49 volts per channel. That is a better fit for your 4 DR250's and then each cab would have it's own amp channel. Or you could go with the iNuke NU3000 for the DR250's which also puts out ~49 volts per channel but is a 2 channel amp.
Theoretically. At those voltages it can't really sustain power long enough to matter. While you can technically get the amps to do that kind of voltage output, in order to compare them, they need to be derated by 50% power (cut the watts in half, not the volts). I've used enough of them now to know, believe me. I use them in installs, they sound good, are pretty quiet, etc, but "Behringer Watts" is really a thing, in my book. 1 Behringer Watt = 0.5 real watts.
What are wattss? :noob:

Those voltages are measured under load by myself playing sine waves into my cabinets.
I bought an iNuke 6000 4 channel for monitor use. The only way I could get the rated voltage was by driving the inputs into clipping. The actual output before clipping was somewhat lower than advertised. But, as they are for monitors, it's plenty. I have a feeling that this statement might be true for a lot of manufacturers. I haven't tested any of my other amps.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Grymer
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Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#8 Post by Grymer » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:41 pm

CoronaOperator wrote:
BrentEvans wrote:
CoronaOperator wrote:The iNuke NU6000 puts out ~97 volts per channel, way too much power for the DR250's if you are using the 2510's. The iNuke NU4-6000 (4 channel) puts out ~49 volts per channel. That is a better fit for your 4 DR250's and then each cab would have it's own amp channel. Or you could go with the iNuke NU3000 for the DR250's which also puts out ~49 volts per channel but is a 2 channel amp.

Theoretically. At those voltages it can't really sustain power long enough to matter. While you can technically get the amps to do that kind of voltage output, in order to compare them, they need to be derated by 50% power (cut the watts in half, not the volts). I've used enough of them now to know, believe me. I use them in installs, they sound good, are pretty quiet, etc, but "Behringer Watts" is really a thing, in my book. 1 Behringer Watt = 0.5 real watts.
What are wattss? :noob:

Those voltages are measured under load by myself playing sine waves into my cabinets.
I bought an iNuke 6000 4 channel for monitor use. The only way I could get the rated voltage was by driving the inputs into clipping. The actual output before clipping was somewhat lower than advertised. But, as they are for monitors, it's plenty. I have a feeling that this statement might be true for a lot of manufacturers. I haven't tested any of my other amps.

Well. The original question is not about watts. It is obvious that cheap amplifiers "cheat" with their numbers. My question is if I will experience a sound-quailty improve when buying more expensive amps?

I am not a man made of money, and If expensive amps are better, I'd go and find some used ones, but if the iNukes are fine, then I'd rather go for them, since they're ultra light and cheap :)

Thanks for the answers!
4 Titan48 19" - Kappalite 3015LF

Copenhagen, Denmark

Grant Bunter
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Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#9 Post by Grant Bunter » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:13 pm

Grymer wrote: Well. The original question is not about watts. It is obvious that cheap amplifiers "cheat" with their numbers. My question is if I will experience a sound-quailty improve when buying more expensive amps?

I am not a man made of money, and If expensive amps are better, I'd go and find some used ones, but if the iNukes are fine, then I'd rather go for them, since they're ultra light and cheap :)
Well, part of the answer is about watts, because, if you could believe what every company put on their product, then you'd just go and get what you need in terms of watts or volts, and base your decision on budget. You need to know what you're buying has adequate sustainable voltage swing to cover your needs, or, you buy (at least) twice.

Most amps on the market these days sound fine. They don't last as a company otherwise.
Most of us don't have the ears to tell the difference either. Throw in auto EQ and tweak after, and that probably doesn't matter.
Do your research about amp classes and different brands. No one company has a magic electronic component that makes their amps unbelievable, but some spend more time on design, and R&D, and they will generally cost you more. And they are better amps, in terms of sound, reliability etc etc...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

CoronaOperator
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#10 Post by CoronaOperator » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:35 pm

The expensive amplifiers cheat with their numbers too, it is pretty much universal.

There are lots of reasons some amplifiers cost more than others but sound quality isn't really one of them. Things like universal power supplies, service centers, ability to drive low impedance ohms, ability to play in hot areas without overheating, soft turn on/off, etc, etc cost more.

The only reason I would stay away from the Behringers is if you use generators as a power source. Then their lack of power factor correction will severely lesson their output.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

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BrentEvans
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Location: Salisbury, NC

Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#11 Post by BrentEvans » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:54 am

CoronaOperator wrote:The expensive amplifiers cheat with their numbers too, it is pretty much universal.
It depends on the manufacturer. Lab Gruppens can perform as advertised.
There are lots of reasons some amplifiers cost more than others but sound quality isn't really one of them. Things like universal power supplies, service centers, ability to drive low impedance ohms, ability to play in hot areas without overheating, soft turn on/off, etc, etc cost more.
True to a point. There can be a perceptible difference between cheaper class D amps and even the next step up. The Behrigers just cannot recover fast enough from hard bass hits. They can reproduce sine waves all day, but feed them program content and the output goes down. The same is true of Peavey IPR (not as much the IPR2s but the originals) and the Crown class D stuff. It really expends on the content.
The only reason I would stay away from the Behringers is if you use generators as a power source. Then their lack of power factor correction will severely lesson their output.
Or if you need to push them anywhere close to their limits. Or if you need to meet riders. Or if you have any respect for yourself. :mrgreen:
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

CoronaOperator
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#12 Post by CoronaOperator » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:52 pm

BrentEvans wrote:
CoronaOperator wrote:The expensive amplifiers cheat with their numbers too, it is pretty much universal.
It depends on the manufacturer. Lab Gruppens can perform as advertised.
No they don't, you cannot get 14,000 watts from a 16 amp/230 volt service, or from a 30amp/115v service. They all cheat. Listing peak power (which is pure marketing deception), they may as well short out a power cap and measure the instantaneous power output of the shorted cap. Oh wait, they do do that, it's called pmpo power output.

http://labgruppen.com/view-model/fpseri ... ?page=spec
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6407
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#13 Post by Bruce Weldy » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:03 pm

CoronaOperator wrote:
BrentEvans wrote:
CoronaOperator wrote:The expensive amplifiers cheat with their numbers too, it is pretty much universal.
It depends on the manufacturer. Lab Gruppens can perform as advertised.
No they don't, you cannot get 14,000 watts from a 16 amp/230 volt service, or from a 30amp/115v service. They all cheat. Listing peak power (which is pure marketing deception), they may as well short out a power cap and measure the instantaneous power output of the shorted cap. Oh wait, they do do that, it's called pmpo power output.

http://labgruppen.com/view-model/fpseri ... ?page=spec
Danged if you ain't right! They only show max power rating.....I'd have expected better from them.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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BrentEvans
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Re: iNukes vs Crown XLi-series

#14 Post by BrentEvans » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:14 pm

CoronaOperator wrote:
BrentEvans wrote:
CoronaOperator wrote:The expensive amplifiers cheat with their numbers too, it is pretty much universal.
It depends on the manufacturer. Lab Gruppens can perform as advertised.
No they don't, you cannot get 14,000 watts from a 16 amp/230 volt service, or from a 30amp/115v service. They all cheat. Listing peak power (which is pure marketing deception), they may as well short out a power cap and measure the instantaneous power output of the shorted cap. Oh wait, they do do that, it's called pmpo power output.

http://labgruppen.com/view-model/fpseri ... ?page=spec
Peak power output is a useful spec. (Most) Music isn't made of sine waves, it has peaks and troughs. How well an amp handles those peaks and troughs is how good it sounds. For a brief instant, that LG CAN Deliver that 14000w, either into a 4 ohm bridged load, or collectively into 2 2ohm loads. The comparable NU12000 from Behringer just can't do it. That might be the reason the 12000 was discontinued. The 6000 isn't any better. They're good amps... they just need to be derated by 50%.

Further, you absolutely can get more than the 3680w (or 2400w in the US) from a typical wall circuit, again for brief moments, without tripping the breaker. This is another mantra we need to put to bed around here. This is where class D amps shine, and why cheap ones don't perform well on cheap generators. They are quite good at harnessing those bursts of power. Even class AB amps work like this to a degree. I know from experience that you can run two rmx5050s With 2 ohm loads and subwoofer content on a single 30a 110v circuit with the clip lights solidly lit without blowing the breaker. It all has to do with the crest factor of the music.

It's not like a heating element, which draws all the power the outlet can take at once.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

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