The amps come marching in

[subharmonic]

So lets talk amps. Home audio only please.

Is there advantages to better amps with highly sensitive speakers? I mean if 10 volts is screaming loud, leaving a lot of headroom. Why go with bad boy amps. I am thinking Bryston (insert whatever model) vs my Behringer A500 or a Marantz (or Onkyo) multichannel vs a Anthem multichannel weighing 4x as much. Obviously the volts they produce as in reserve but what makes a great amp and what can it do in the new speaker realm I find myself in.

Also having never heard a tube amp (don't ask me how this happened) for stereo listening are they worth it? They are freakin spendy and need maintenance? I have heard full digital and they are gorgeous sounding in an interesting way (kinda like horn subs)

Just wanting a general discussion. Personal experiences are a plus.

[Tom Smit]

Hehe, oddiphile.

[subharmonic]

Hehe, oddiphile.

Hmmm.....guess source doesn't matter either. I should play vinyl from a headphone jack strung out from my FischerPrice turntable 2 rooms away. Thanks Tom!

I guess I shouldn't say home audio only since guitarists use valve amps and car guys have digital...just not full digital that I am aware of.

[Radian]

I mean if 10 volts is screaming loud, leaving a lot of headroom. Why go with bad boy amps.

Dunno.

I've personally got a Panasonic 65W strapped to a pair of Klipsch La Scala, and the combination can blow the hide off a steer at 10V.

[But it Hertz]

Well this promises to be an interesting thread. I was pub talking with a mate during the week and we were musing about valve amps. Like you say, they are hellishly expensive (well, the higher power ones are, anyway) and I haven't actually heard one either so don't know if they live up to the hype!!

My wife's uncle is an old school electronics dude who started out building and repairing military valve equipment. He says the basics are dead simple so I have asked him to teach me enough to build an amp or two.

I thought it might be fun to have a pair of SLA's with functional valves and maybe even some nixie tubes sticking out of them steam punk style.

[Bas Gooiker]

If you can get your hands on a Quad 33 / 303 combo, they are great amplifiers. The 405 wich is the successor to the 303 has much greater power but does'nt have the stabilized power supply. They are Brittish made so they might be rare in the states. There are quite a few people who offer refurbished models or even upgraded.

I love music but im not realy the oddiophile kind, maybe if i win the lottery one day i'll build myself a great 10w tube amp to power 4 sqaure meter horns powerd by a single 10000 dollar driver.

[bassmonster]

When I use the dual TT in the car I power the Bash 300 off a DC/AC converter that puts out 130w max ILS rating... as I only need 5v to get people twitching in the passenger seat, I don't see any practical reason to upgrade.

[subharmonic]

I think it is obvious that at low power they go loud enough, but are better built amps with better power supplies, bigger torroids, etc = better sound? Faster transients? I have heard Brystons before and they sounded sweet, on speakers with low 80s sensitivity and high power handling.

[Boyd]

As almost all home amps use passive heatsinks (and sometimes circuit topographies that generate more heat such as class A), one of the main resons for amplifier headroom in home applications is to ensure adequite heat dissipation for your intended listening levels.

This becomes more important if you tend to crank your speakers to high SPLs, and less important as speaker sensitivity rises.

Personally, I retrofit PC case fans into my home amps, wired to their own multi-voltage power supply, so I can turn them on seperately when desired, and adjust fan speed to suit.

IMHO amplifier / speaker combinations can vary quite a bit in tonality, so if possible try before you buy to see what they sound like with your particular speakers. One of my all time fav's tonally is an old Rotel amp driving an old pair of higher end Technics speakers.

We tried out a Bryston 100W amp on a 15 year old nearly forgotten pair of Kef bookshelf speakers - they came to life and sounded a million bucks - better than new. Yet a pair of Paradigm floorstanders (tecnically better speakers) sounded very good, but without the same magic. The combination can be everything.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

So lets talk amps. Home audio only please.

Is there advantages to better amps with highly sensitive speakers? I mean if 10 volts is screaming loud, leaving a lot of headroom. Why go with bad boy amps.

The limit of an amp is based on the ability to get rid of heat. Bigger amps have bigger heat sinks. The advantage is that, all things being equal, electronics that run cooler last longer. But, you don't need to go nuts.

That said, I have no experience with tube amps. I do know that "audio transparency" is a good thing, and can be achieved with modern equipment for not a lot of $$$.

--Stan Graves

[safebet]

So lets talk amps. Home audio only please.

Is there advantages to better amps with highly sensitive speakers? I mean if 10 volts is screaming loud, leaving a lot of headroom. Why go with bad boy amps.

Just wanting a general discussion. Personal experiences are a plus.

The better amp is the one that works well with your particular speaker combination and listening preferences. It's easier to discover this if you can find others locally who'll help you swap gear until you get the combination that works.

Tube based gear are least likely to accurately reproduce electrical signals as they amplify and due largely to their output transformers are most likely to be affected by complex loading of the connected loudspeaker. Any yet often the right pairing yields enjoyable results. One of my favorite systems back in the 80's were a pair of Spica TC-50 driven by Dynaco Mark IV 40 watt monoblock amplifiers. The system was not the most detailed but the pairing softened the high end just enough and the system delivered absolutely glorious imaging with very cohesive response through the critical midrange. An M&K Subwoofer, driven by a solid state amplifier of course, provided a very solid and deep bottom end.

Some pairings aren't as obvious. For example, I'm currently using a Crown XLS2000 to drive my Econowave Deluxe HO pair, an extremely efficient system. This came about primarily out of convenience, and I didn't think it would have worked so well, but the simple act of setting the input attenuators at the 12 O'clock position reduced upstream noise to nearly inaudible. The extreme clarity obtained at milli-watt listening levels in my studio is amazing and quite unexpected. And this is the same combination that with the Tuba 30 pair reproduce music still detailed but at incredible volume!

And while the detail when playing for example great 70's recordings from Al Stewart, Fleetwood Mac and The Doobie Brothers is awesome sometimes it's distracting from lesser sources - go figure. Then the slight euphoric effect of even order harmonics from an EL34 tube pair, like in the Dynaco Mark IV becomes more welcome. There's a balance, and changing moods also affect these preferences.

It's not just the noise at low levels, earlier transistor amplifiers introduced switching distortion into the waveform, an attribute that was particularly bothersome at quiet volume but masked at higher volume. For example I have an early Kenwood receiver that is beautiful looking and feature packed but unlistenable for any length of time. It gathers dust on a shelf. My Sansui AU9500 from the same era though sounds wonderful. Success is all in design and execution, not so much by the materials used. Modern amplifiers should not have such issue but as has been famously said, the first watt is the most important, and this is particularly true with efficient speakers.

Sometimes the fit is good but can be improved. The Legacy Audio Classics with dual 10 inch woofers are a very dynamic speaker and sound good with most any amplifier. But to take full advantage they need a robust amplifier with good current delivery, something like the Crown XLS2000, to take control of the woofers, especially but not only at higher volume. Smaller NAD models and the Quad 405 were definitely not up to the task. The Odyssey Stratos in use now is a reasonable match though something like a Rotel 1090 would probably be a better yet without breaking the bank.

I don't buy into a lot of the crap offered by those in the trade. Sure, I subscribe to and read Stereophile, but at a little over a buck an issue why not? It provides food for thought and certainly entertainment on the cheap. It also reminds me that there are a lot of people out there with more money than sense. "The Emperor's New Clothes" comes to mind. Just remember to trust your own knowledge and instinct. Which leads to the final thought below.

If you can get your hands on a Quad 33 / 303 combo, they are great amplifiers. The 405 wich is the successor to the 303 has much greater power but does'nt have the stabilized power supply. They are Brittish made so they might be rare in the states. There are quite a few people who offer refurbished models or even upgraded.

The Quad suggestion above is of particular interest to me and largely what prompted this reply.

I have great respect for Peter Walker and the Quad ESL series of loudspeakers; they were and remain a tremendous achievement in audio reproduction. I am not disagreeing with Bas Gooiker either; the Quad 33 / 303 combo are probably terrific, I've just never heard them.

I have however owned the Quad 34/405 combo (FM4 tuner as well) and was surprised to realize that the 34 preamp was incapable of driving the 405 to full output power. To anyone familiar, there were resistors that could be "fitted" onto the PC boards of the 405 to limit voltage, a safety requirement when driving the ESL's to prevent damage, but this is not what I'm talking about. The preamp simply clips long before the amplifier, a characteristic in which the reverse should be true to insure adequate headroom and full system performance.

I spoke with Mr Walker's son once at a seminar and politely asked his opinion on this to which the response was to the effect that "no one has ever complained before". It was a turning point where I began trusting my own instincts, questioning others where my knowledge and experience fueled the courage of my convictions. Opinion is just that, but learn to listen carefully and trust your own ears.

FYI I still have the 405 though I let the preamp and tuner go long ago. It needs a recap but I probably won't bother. Amplifiers, at least well designed ones operated within limits, should all "sound" the same. Yet in subtle ways they don't and it's difficult to understand exactly why. The Quad 405 and the Carver M 1.5t, two amplifiers I've rotated into systems over the years, both lack a certain kind of detail that's hard to define.

But don't believe just because someone says so. If it sounds good just enjoy the music and heed the words of Stevie Wonder; "When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer". Things like speaker selection, placement and EQ when required are far more consequential than splitting hairs on amplifier selection.