AT 10" driver choice

For livingroom sound better than in a theatre.
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Line92
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:54 am
Location: Sweden

AT 10" driver choice

#1 Post by Line92 »

Hi, Linus here again!
I am currently building my first Autotuba and need some help.

I made it with 20" wide panels because it will fit my car (and living room) best that way.
Now i have ordered the Dayton LS10-44 but it will be a month more or so to delivery to Sweden.
I have searched alot to find a better driver within specs and height, it is really hard to find!
But yesterday i found the Ground Zero GZTW 10F that has parameters within specs and alot more xmax at 13mm.

DAYTON 2x4ohm:
Fs 34.3
Qms 5.15
Qes 0.47
Qts 0.43
Mms 132g
Cms 0.16
Sd 366cm2
Vd 366 cm3
Bl 21.1
Vas 30.8L
Xmax 10mm
V-c diam 50mm
Spl 86.5
250w rms

GROUND ZERO 2x2ohm:
Fs 38.1
Qms 6.137
Qes 0.436
Qts 0.407
Mms 117g
Cms 0.148
Sd 346cm2
Vd 449.8 cm3
Bl 15.98
Vas 27.1L
Xmax 13mm
V-c diam 50mm copper with Alu former
Spl 87.5
300w rms

Which one of those do you will be best suited for my 20" Autotuba?
It will be driven by a Massive Audio N2 that delivers according to benchmarks in 40hz ~14v:
213w rms 1%thd 4 ohm
339w rms 1%thd 2 ohm
466w rms 1%thd 1 ohm

I want as much bass output, clean sound and durability i can get from this cab and that first should be a no brainer to choose the GZTW 10F because the higher Vd.
But it has also less Sd, it should be some effect to the sound i guess because of the horn and 20" width?
Also higher thermal rating and xmax, should be less chance of destruction i guess?

Whats your opinion and choice?
Thanks!

EDIT: the cab is not glued yet ofcourse, i will need to take everything apart again and cut the baffle for the driver.
Attachments
20210127_192356.jpg
SLA PRO 4X6
T60 2x20"
Labgruppen fP6400. fP2400Q. DBX Driverack PA2
TLAH
AT 20"
TRT

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#2 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

The GZ would work better than the Dayton, in a direct radiating cab. In a horn the difference would be slight, if any, because if you put more than 100w into it you will go deaf in short order.

Line92
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:54 am
Location: Sweden

Re: AT 10" driver choice

#3 Post by Line92 »

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:06 am The GZ would work better than the Dayton, in a direct radiating cab. In a horn the difference would be slight, if any, because if you put more than 100w into it you will go deaf in short order.
Hahahaha! I really like that deaf thing! :hyper:
Btw isnt the ear not that sensitive down low around 40-50hz?

I have built a couple big spl systems in cars 10 years ago.
Not a big car audio fan more... most kids now days dont put as much love and effort into it as we did when back then.

For spl purpose we made 152db 51hz with two 12" in a VW Golf 3. (Was inside the car, impossible to see anything but didnt hurt my ears)
"SQ" ~146db 36hz with four 15" in a wall in a Volvo.
Both used 6 really big backup batteries and 10kw+ amps.
That 4x15" build was way more fun and musical.

Enough bragging hehe!
So i could just go with the GZ option because then i can get deaf sooner?
Is there no real advantage with the Dayton?
SLA PRO 4X6
T60 2x20"
Labgruppen fP6400. fP2400Q. DBX Driverack PA2
TLAH
AT 20"
TRT

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#4 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Line92 wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:41 am For spl purpose we made 152db 51hz with two 12" in a VW Golf 3.
Cabin gain inside the small confines of the car fooled the meter. It can result in SPL measurements 20 to 30dB or more than actual. Cabin gain is the only reason why silly high levels are measured in cars. The ear isn't that sensitive way down low, but look at how much the cones are jumping. Your ear drums are jumping as well. If these levels can blow the windshield out they can blow your eardrum out.

Line92
Posts: 48
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Location: Sweden

Re: AT 10" driver choice

#5 Post by Line92 »

[/quote] Cabin gain inside the small confines of the car fooled the meter. It can result in SPL measurements 20 to 30dB or more than actual. Cabin gain is the only reason why silly high levels are measured in cars. The ear isn't that sensitive way down low, but look at how much the cones are jumping. Your ear drums are jumping as well. If these levels can blow the windshield out they can blow your eardrum out.
[/quote]


Yeah i get that the cabin gain is crazy in a small reinforced car.
If i would put those subs outside, it would actually be nothing than a big ugly distorting dissapointment! :lol:

Its of course not blown eardrums i want to achieve with this build, i want crazy tight, clean, musical and loud bass in the car :D and also be able to use it inside at smaller parties with my SLA PRO.

Now i have a sealed JL 12 in the car that does the job pretty ok but barely keeps up with the rest of the system, that will be upgraded later with DSP, amp and better door speakers.
Instead of buying extremely heavy subs, batteries, amps and cables for thousand of $ i want to go the effective way like the rest of you here and get better sound with less money and weight.
Also show critics that one does not need dual 15s and 5kw to play loud, nice and clean bass, just a very good horn design thanks to you Bill!

BTW i have not started my T30 build yet :(

If i calculate the 152db (does Termlab use dBz or dBc?) to dBa it should be around 122 at 50hz?, which should be the amount of dB that our ears perceive? Still very loud but not really dangerous in short bursts?
Exept the crazy "pressure" inside the car.
SLA PRO 4X6
T60 2x20"
Labgruppen fP6400. fP2400Q. DBX Driverack PA2
TLAH
AT 20"
TRT

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#6 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

dBA is never used to measure speakers, it's either dBC or dBZ. dBA rolls off below 500Hz.

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AntonZ
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#7 Post by AntonZ »

Line92 wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:04 pm If i would put those subs outside, it would actually be nothing than a big ugly distorting dissapointment! :lol:
A single AT indeed. But power is in the numbers, even more so where horns are at play. Many years ago a group of builders got together somewhere in the US. Just to see what the others had made, for some measurements, some food and drink in the afternoon sun and most importantly for a good deal of fun. One of them had built a set of six autotuba's. The set did not win beauty contests as construction had been quick and dirty. But they were built by the rules: solid and airtight. They were set up outside, tied together with a good number of serious straps. Then the watts were unleashed. Outside, open field. I think it was reported that double hearing protection (foam earplugs plus headband ear muffs) was not enough protection for the levels produced by the stack of six. I think I stored a picture somewhere, can look it up if you want me to.

jimbo7
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Location: St. Louis

Re: AT 10" driver choice

#8 Post by jimbo7 »

I've used one AT at a backyard bbq at reasonable levels and it performed great. I've also used 2 AT's in a single car garage and it was clearly heard on the other end of the house. And that was maybe 1/4 of its voltage limit.
You can't underestimate the power of the design. Even though it wasn't designed for for outdoors, it'll still beast any plastic boombox.
BFM builds:
XF212
T24 BP102 24"
2x SLA's 6-5" mids, 9- gt-302's
2x AT 14" MCM 55-2421
TrT 5" MCM 55-2421
AT 18" JBL GTO804
2x OT12 flat array
2x SLA Pro 2-Alpha 6's 2-Goldwoods
2x T39 24" 3012lf
Simplex 10 BP102

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#9 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Line92 wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:38 am the cab is not glued yet ofcourse, i will need to take everything apart again and cut the baffle for the driver.
If you plan on running this at very high levels you should double the number of braces.

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Tom Smit
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#10 Post by Tom Smit »

Oops.
The correct post is below.
Last edited by Tom Smit on Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TomS

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Tom Smit
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#11 Post by Tom Smit »

AntonZ wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:26 pm
Line92 wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:04 pmMany years ago<snip> One of them had built a set of six autotuba's. The set did not win beauty contests as construction had been quick and dirty. But they'v were built by the rules: solid and airtight. They were set up outside, tied together with a good number of serious straps.
I've been looking for that post a month ago but, for the life of me, I can't remember who it was! :wall:
TomS

Line92
Posts: 48
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Location: Sweden

Re: AT 10" driver choice

#12 Post by Line92 »

AntonZ wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:26 pm
Line92 wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:04 pm If i would put those subs outside, it would actually be nothing than a big ugly distorting dissapointment! :lol:
A single AT indeed. But power is in the numbers, even more so where horns are at play. Many years ago a group of builders got together somewhere in the US. Just to see what the others had made, for some measurements, some food and drink in the afternoon sun and most importantly for a good deal of fun. One of them had built a set of six autotuba's. The set did not win beauty contests as construction had been quick and dirty. But they were built by the rules: solid and airtight. They were set up outside, tied together with a good number of serious straps. Then the watts were unleashed. Outside, open field. I think it was reported that double hearing protection (foam earplugs plus headband ear muffs) was not enough protection for the levels produced by the stack of six. I think I stored a picture somewhere, can look it up if you want me to.
I did mean that if i put that car audio 2x12" bass reflex cab outside.
I dont expect this to either distort or dissapoint at medium power levels :D
I do like the design and format of the AT. If it impresses alot then maybe i can fit one more in my car 8)

Wow six autotubas would be sick!
Would be cool if you found that pic, was it on like a asphalt parking lot, stacked 3 high with black straps or something? I somehow recognize this but could also be another build. :?

I know what a good horn sub can do in comparison to a reflex/TL with the same driver.

I wonder how Autotubas would compare to like wide T24 or narrow T45/T30
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:19 pm
Line92 wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:38 am the cab is not glued yet ofcourse, i will need to take everything apart again and cut the baffle for the driver.
If you plan on running this at very high levels you should double the number of braces.
Thanks for the advice, i could easily do some extra braces, could i also do some horizontal braces in the horn mouth like the T60?

I was not really happy with the look on the big brace you can see, i f****d up the holes a bit, but like that curve to it so i will probably make dual braces like this but not with as many holes.. :lol:
SLA PRO 4X6
T60 2x20"
Labgruppen fP6400. fP2400Q. DBX Driverack PA2
TLAH
AT 20"
TRT

Grant Bunter
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#13 Post by Grant Bunter »

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, so just to make sure, I will.

Horn subs don't distort. A direct radiator will start to distort when it approaches driver limits.
But a horn sub doesn't do that. it stops working.
If you push it to hard, it will work, and then it will stop working and after you've gone through tracking everything down, you'll find a blown driver.

Obviously, this is more likely to happen when you use a sub designed for a vehicle in a big open outdoors space, because your instinct will be to turn it up.
Don't do that.
It does what it does.

If you really want decent sub bass outdoors, Bill has a heap of designs for exactly that purpose...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Line92
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:54 am
Location: Sweden

Re: AT 10" driver choice

#14 Post by Line92 »

Grant Bunter wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:27 am I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, so just to make sure, I will.

Horn subs don't distort. A direct radiator will start to distort when it approaches driver limits.
But a horn sub doesn't do that. it stops working.
If you push it to hard, it will work, and then it will stop working and after you've gone through tracking everything down, you'll find a blown driver.

Obviously, this is more likely to happen when you use a sub designed for a vehicle in a big open outdoors space, because your instinct will be to turn it up.
Don't do that.
It does what it does.

If you really want decent sub bass outdoors, Bill has a heap of designs for exactly that purpose...
Yeah thanks for the info, i know :D
Noticed that with my 186 horns, way after they should exceed Xmax they still sound fantastic, but it wont last forever...
Thats why i want to get started with my T30 build, still saving up money.

I have read almost everything Bill has writen about horn loaded subs on this forum, its very hard to take all the info and remember it because its ALOT :lol:

But i will get started with my 4xT30 20" 3012LF build when i have sold my 186 horns and saved up for the rest.
SLA PRO 4X6
T60 2x20"
Labgruppen fP6400. fP2400Q. DBX Driverack PA2
TLAH
AT 20"
TRT

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AntonZ
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Re: AT 10" driver choice

#15 Post by AntonZ »

Tom, Linus:
It seems this was back in 2007, in Novato CA. One of the attendants was none less than respected forum member Harley Dear. He was on holiday in the US from NZ and met quite a good number of builders in person. I do not remember who the other forum members were, nor do I remember the name of the guy who built the stack of Autotuba's.
Stack of 6x Autotuba
Stack of 6x Autotuba
How loud?
How loud?

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