Behringer Wing announcement
- BrentEvans
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:38 am
- Location: Salisbury, NC
Behringer Wing announcement
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.
- Strange Kevin
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:02 pm
- Location: Scottsdale AZ
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
Yeah, we still don't know too much about that one.
But the newer V4 firmware for the M32/X32 consoles look pretty cool. The big thing there being individual routing capabilities.
Also, the new personal monitoring controller are interesting.
But the newer V4 firmware for the M32/X32 consoles look pretty cool. The big thing there being individual routing capabilities.
Also, the new personal monitoring controller are interesting.
Authorized Builder - Phoenix AZ.
Main Rig - 6 DR200s - 6 T48s (30")
SLA Pros for the smaller stuff.
Main Rig - 6 DR200s - 6 T48s (30")
SLA Pros for the smaller stuff.
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- Posts: 1648
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
- Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
https://youtu.be/FeEzW3X85-E
You are getting a $30k console (cl5) for $3000 - 3500 or less. Not exactly weekend warrior affordable but a lot of mixer for the money. If the channel counts and mix bus counts don't impress you remember they are all STEREO! and backup mics dont use a channel (alt function) and this thing links with the pm16m, x32/m32, pretty much the whole B ecosystem.
Granted you need a $1k stage box to go with it but ...
The revolution is here!
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience
- BrentEvans
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:38 am
- Location: Salisbury, NC
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
It’s got a few things going for it. Lots of toys, and some nifty IO options. It’s also very complex, and things with such a level of complexity lead to more points of failure, or at least confusion.
I wouldn’t call it a $30k mixer . It’s still Behringer. Its $3500 MAP at the moment. There HAS to be a compromise. Some of that is in service. Some of it has to be build quality. Is any of it in functionality and sound quality? Who knows.... but it wouldn’t surprise me.
None of that means I won’t use one. I won’t be able to afford an Avantis to replace my GLD for quite a while. One of these might be a good addition for a second console.
I wouldn’t call it a $30k mixer . It’s still Behringer. Its $3500 MAP at the moment. There HAS to be a compromise. Some of that is in service. Some of it has to be build quality. Is any of it in functionality and sound quality? Who knows.... but it wouldn’t surprise me.
None of that means I won’t use one. I won’t be able to afford an Avantis to replace my GLD for quite a while. One of these might be a good addition for a second console.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.
- Strange Kevin
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:02 pm
- Location: Scottsdale AZ
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
It is a Behringer,
But I'd say the price is pretty good for what you get.
Like most digital consoles, is basically a computer with a bunch of fancy specific buttons.
You also save a good chunk of money on the limited local I/O. No point in paying for 32+ preamps on the console if you always use a digital snake.
I could also see this as a good option for users wanting to upgrade a tired older x32 with out having to buy new snakes and personal monitoring systems and what not.
But I'd say the price is pretty good for what you get.
Like most digital consoles, is basically a computer with a bunch of fancy specific buttons.
You also save a good chunk of money on the limited local I/O. No point in paying for 32+ preamps on the console if you always use a digital snake.
I could also see this as a good option for users wanting to upgrade a tired older x32 with out having to buy new snakes and personal monitoring systems and what not.
Authorized Builder - Phoenix AZ.
Main Rig - 6 DR200s - 6 T48s (30")
SLA Pros for the smaller stuff.
Main Rig - 6 DR200s - 6 T48s (30")
SLA Pros for the smaller stuff.
- BrentEvans
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:38 am
- Location: Salisbury, NC
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
Also, after further looking, it appears that there may not be dedicated FX return channels like the X 32 has. This would mean that all 8 Aux inputs could quickly become filled with effects returns.
Long story short, you have a console with about the same number of mix channels as the x32 but better processing and a few more FX and all channels can be stereo.
Further, the DSP does not seem to be permanently allocated, but allocated per patch, so some things will take up more than others. It will be interesting to see how far that goes and how much processing you can actually accomplish.
It does seem that some Yamaha cues were taken in this design both visually and in the concept of limited DSP, but alas, revolutionary it ain’t. CL5 it ain’t either.
It looks more like a slightly better TF 5 in the Yamaha line. Maybe comparable to slightly better in some ways to an SQ6 or SQ7, and better than anything in the Soundcraft Si line (no surprises there). Price wise that’s about where it sits too... near the TF5 and SQ6 price point and feature set. Probably it will have, , as Behringer normally does, a bit more capability and a bit less quality than those two direct competitors. That was how the X32 was at launch. It kicked the early Presonus boards in the family jewels in features at about the same price, but had some quality control issues. They rectified that eventually and it became a relatively solid and standard product. If they can avoid the QC problems with Wing, it will find it’s place and be a tenable X32 replacement/upgrade. Which is what it is, and what it was likely always meant to be, despite what Uli and the Tribe day.
Long story short, you have a console with about the same number of mix channels as the x32 but better processing and a few more FX and all channels can be stereo.
Further, the DSP does not seem to be permanently allocated, but allocated per patch, so some things will take up more than others. It will be interesting to see how far that goes and how much processing you can actually accomplish.
It does seem that some Yamaha cues were taken in this design both visually and in the concept of limited DSP, but alas, revolutionary it ain’t. CL5 it ain’t either.
It looks more like a slightly better TF 5 in the Yamaha line. Maybe comparable to slightly better in some ways to an SQ6 or SQ7, and better than anything in the Soundcraft Si line (no surprises there). Price wise that’s about where it sits too... near the TF5 and SQ6 price point and feature set. Probably it will have, , as Behringer normally does, a bit more capability and a bit less quality than those two direct competitors. That was how the X32 was at launch. It kicked the early Presonus boards in the family jewels in features at about the same price, but had some quality control issues. They rectified that eventually and it became a relatively solid and standard product. If they can avoid the QC problems with Wing, it will find it’s place and be a tenable X32 replacement/upgrade. Which is what it is, and what it was likely always meant to be, despite what Uli and the Tribe day.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.
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- Posts: 1648
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
- Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
There are some features to the workflow in that video that would solve a whole lot of headaches for the work I typically get.
I do a lot of work where there are 5-10 bands/acts that I never heard of before with 15 minute changeovers so typical combat audio. An act halfway through the changeover now insists on stereo micing the guitar amp, another final act on me changed over the drum kit unannounced (they were there beside me the whole time) and now this kit has 2 bass drums - thanx for letting me know. So I have one bass drum on channel 1, the other on channel 13 and have to patch monitors, gate, eq, etc in 5 minutes and mix with the faders 12 channels apart.
All channels stereo completely solves all my headaches, that alt function for backup/band supplied mics without changing the fader layout solves more of them. I forsee iem's becoming more and more standard for bands so stereo auxs and the ability to set up a basic pm16 mix and then they can fine tune themselves is also a time saver. This board isn't even out yet but it already speaks to me.
I like that the board has 2 stations - pilot and copilot but I don't think I would ever use that feature. It would help with 15 minute changeovers if I had a helper. It would be interesting to see the co-pilot control app to see how much of the board can be remote controlled, ie - crowd mixing with tablet/laptop.
But alas it is still a Behringer. No matter how many features the xr18 or x32 has, my featureless soundcraft ui16 always has a better sounding mix on it. Maybe it's just in my head.
That $3500 MAP is US pricing and afaik includes a 25% tarrif. It cab be pre-ordered for $2800 here. Tarrifs can dissapear just as fast as they can appear so this board may be a really great deal. It will at least shake up the industry like the x32 did as other manufactures will have to respond to this.
I do a lot of work where there are 5-10 bands/acts that I never heard of before with 15 minute changeovers so typical combat audio. An act halfway through the changeover now insists on stereo micing the guitar amp, another final act on me changed over the drum kit unannounced (they were there beside me the whole time) and now this kit has 2 bass drums - thanx for letting me know. So I have one bass drum on channel 1, the other on channel 13 and have to patch monitors, gate, eq, etc in 5 minutes and mix with the faders 12 channels apart.
All channels stereo completely solves all my headaches, that alt function for backup/band supplied mics without changing the fader layout solves more of them. I forsee iem's becoming more and more standard for bands so stereo auxs and the ability to set up a basic pm16 mix and then they can fine tune themselves is also a time saver. This board isn't even out yet but it already speaks to me.
I like that the board has 2 stations - pilot and copilot but I don't think I would ever use that feature. It would help with 15 minute changeovers if I had a helper. It would be interesting to see the co-pilot control app to see how much of the board can be remote controlled, ie - crowd mixing with tablet/laptop.
But alas it is still a Behringer. No matter how many features the xr18 or x32 has, my featureless soundcraft ui16 always has a better sounding mix on it. Maybe it's just in my head.
That $3500 MAP is US pricing and afaik includes a 25% tarrif. It cab be pre-ordered for $2800 here. Tarrifs can dissapear just as fast as they can appear so this board may be a really great deal. It will at least shake up the industry like the x32 did as other manufactures will have to respond to this.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience
- BrentEvans
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:38 am
- Location: Salisbury, NC
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
Combat audio sucks. A lot of this can be completely fixed with a good 32 channel festival patch though. I can accommodate all of that in my festival patch (i'll post that at the bottom) with minimal rejiggering. Also notice that the Wing only has 2 layers of custom control on each bank. Can you put any channel, mix, matrix, etc on any fader? Yes... but not all at the same time. Total bungle on their part. There's NO reason that cant be accomplished. But that's not how the UliTribe rolls.. even the pro series isn't fully configurable.CoronaOperator wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:15 pm I do a lot of work where there are 5-10 bands/acts that I never heard of before with 15 minute changeovers so typical combat audio. An act halfway through the changeover now insists on stereo micing the guitar amp, another final act on me changed over the drum kit unannounced (they were there beside me the whole time) and now this kit has 2 bass drums - thanx for letting me know. So I have one bass drum on channel 1, the other on channel 13 and have to patch monitors, gate, eq, etc in 5 minutes and mix with the faders 12 channels apart.
The all stereo auxes is nice, but not at all necessary. I've only had a handful of artists at the levels most of us work at that just HAD to have a stereo mix and wouldn't perform without it. I havent had a traveling band yet that used personal monitor mixers. In fact, most of them are grateful to have enough mixes so that they all can have their own. So again.. meh.All channels stereo completely solves all my headaches, that alt function for backup/band supplied mics without changing the fader layout solves more of them. I forsee iem's becoming more and more standard for bands so stereo auxs and the ability to set up a basic pm16 mix and then they can fine tune themselves is also a time saver. This board isn't even out yet but it already speaks to me.
Nothing really new here. Remote configuration has been around for a while in various levels. With proper setup and planning, it's not a problem.I like that the board has 2 stations - pilot and copilot but I don't think I would ever use that feature. It would help with 15 minute changeovers if I had a helper. It would be interesting to see the co-pilot control app to see how much of the board can be remote controlled, ie - crowd mixing with tablet/laptop.
It's not in your head.But alas it is still a Behringer. No matter how many features the xr18 or x32 has, my featureless soundcraft ui16 always has a better sounding mix on it. Maybe it's just in my head.
I'd be careful importing large items like that. When you get over $2500, there is "extensive paperwork" that has to be dealt with and there is still import duty to consider. I think it's about 5% on those items, which isn't 25% but its still something. Returns are a hassle with European shipping, and i'd put a question mark over warranty support. Of course there's already a question mark there with UliTribe anyway.That $3500 MAP is US pricing and afaik includes a 25% tarrif. It cab be pre-ordered for $2800 here. Tarrifs can dissapear just as fast as they can appear so this board may be a really great deal. It will at least shake up the industry like the x32 did as other manufactures will have to respond to this.
"Great deal" is very subjective.
Festival patch:
Backline Snake:
1. Kick L / Out
2. Kick R / In (You're out of luck if you demand In/Out for a double kick, but I've never had that happen)
3. Snare Hi
4. Snare Lo
5. Hat
6. T1
7. T2
8. T3
9. T4
10. T5
11. T6
12. T7
Any extras (aux perc, pads, etc) take the place of something that's not there in whatever position is available and/or makes sense. nothing ever gets "moved," just substituted.
13. Bass
14. EGtr 1
15. EGtr 2
16. EGtr 3
Frontline Snake:
17. AcGtr 1
18. AcGtr 2
19. AcGtr 3
20. Key 1 L
21. Key 1 R
22. Key 2 L
23. Key 2 R
24. Click
25. Vox 1
26. Vox 2
27. Vox 3
28. Vox 4
29. Vox 5
30. Vox 6
31. Track L
32. Track R
I can accomodate more channels on stage since I have a GLD and 40 channels of stage box, but I've never needed it with this patch. Sometimes Elec. Gtr overflows into the acoustic channels, or we add horns there, or horns in keyboard channels, or something like that.. but I have rarely if ever had to reorder the patch to make it work and make sense.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.
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- Posts: 8322
- Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
- Location: New Braunfels, TX
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
My rig only has one piece of Behringer gear......my 4 channel monitor amp. Only bought it because I wanted 4 mixes all in my one rack and I was out of room. Even though it has performed fine thus far - I still hold my breath every time we fire it up.....but, there's 4 more channels of Crown power in the trailer should it fail.
I've mixed on the X32 and the M32 a multitude of times....I still prefer the Presonus workflow and GUI over the Berry. No problem with the A&H, although I have limited experience with it....only a couple of shows.
The Wing isn't that new of a concept in cheaper mixers. Presonus had the CS18 Control surface that linked up to the RM series years ago. And I'm guessing that they will introduce another similar model for the Series III.
Bottom line though - whether Chevy or Ford, if the guy driving doesn't know what he's doing, it will crash and burn.
I've mixed on the X32 and the M32 a multitude of times....I still prefer the Presonus workflow and GUI over the Berry. No problem with the A&H, although I have limited experience with it....only a couple of shows.
The Wing isn't that new of a concept in cheaper mixers. Presonus had the CS18 Control surface that linked up to the RM series years ago. And I'm guessing that they will introduce another similar model for the Series III.
Bottom line though - whether Chevy or Ford, if the guy driving doesn't know what he's doing, it will crash and burn.
6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210
"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
I've read posts from reputable guys saying they can hear the difference and improvement in sound quality the Midas M32 offers over the Behringer X32. I don't know about all that. I'm highly suspicious that they are simply hearing their imagination. Personally, I want to see conclusive unbiased testing. Signal In vs. signal Out. I don't want a "warm" sound, I want an accurate sound. The input preamps, mixer, and output stages should be as transparent and sonically invisible as possible IMO. "MIDAS preamps have that distinct warm sound". Fooey! Maybe that was something desirable back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. If something sounds "warm", and I (or you) didn't put it there... it's signal distortion IMO. Not what I want. So, I'm curious, what has you guys say one sounds better than the other? What makes it so for you?BrentEvans wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:40 amIt's not in your head.CoronaOperator wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:15 pm But alas it is still a Behringer. No matter how many features the xr18 or x32 has, my featureless soundcraft ui16 always has a better sounding mix on it. Maybe it's just in my head.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded
Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
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- Posts: 8322
- Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
- Location: New Braunfels, TX
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
I suspect that your last statement is true.SethRocksYou wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:16 pm
I've read posts from reputable guys saying they can hear the difference and improvement in sound quality the Midas M32 offers over the Behringer X32. I don't know about all that. I'm highly suspicious that they are simply hearing their imagination.
I've mixed a lot of times on an X32 through a less than stellar JBL system. I can make the band sound good. Last month I mixed on an M32 through a really nice RCF line array system....and the band sounded great......
So, was it the M vs. X? Or the mid-level JBL system vs. the RCF line array? Who really knows how one board sounds compared to the other unless you run 'em through identical systems in the same venue.
Do preamps on different boards sound different? I'm sure they do, but I'm not about to suggest that my ears are so good that I can discern the difference through different systems in different venues.
I do however, put way more stock in the workflow and ease of use of a particular mixer. There really aren't any terrible mixers out there nowadays (not counting low-end cheap crap). Behringer, Presonus, A&H, Soundcraft........I've made 'em all sound good and heard others do the same. By the same token, I've heard some really high dollar boards sound like crap.....it's all about brain moving the fingers that manipulate the knobs that matters the most.
6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210
"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."
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- Posts: 1648
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
- Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
Someone did a signal i/o comparison between an x32 and a ui24r on another forum (clean, no fx) and there were no noticeable differences on the traces, yet agreed the soundcraft sounded better in a live mix. Aside from differences in the comps/fx's/etc, that leaves board workflow and operator as the main contributors to the different sounding mix's.SethRocksYou wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:16 pm Personally, I want to see conclusive unbiased testing. Signal In vs. signal Out. I don't want a "warm" sound, I want an accurate sound. The input preamps, mixer, and output stages should be as transparent and sonically invisible as possible IMO. "MIDAS preamps have that distinct warm sound". Fooey! Maybe that was something desirable back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. If something sounds "warm", and I (or you) didn't put it there... it's signal distortion IMO. Not what I want. So, I'm curious, what has you guys say one sounds better than the other? What makes it so for you?
I keep going back to Bruce's signature. A good board with a few buttons mastered will sound better than using a lot of buttons without any mastery of any of them.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience
-
- Posts: 1648
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
- Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
THANK YOU BRENT!!!! Bookmarked and saved.BrentEvans wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:40 am
Festival patch:
Backline Snake:
1. Kick L / Out
2. Kick R / In (You're out of luck if you demand In/Out for a double kick, but I've never had that happen)
3. Snare Hi
4. Snare Lo
5. Hat
6. T1
7. T2
8. T3
9. T4
10. T5
11. T6
12. T7
Any extras (aux perc, pads, etc) take the place of something that's not there in whatever position is available and/or makes sense. nothing ever gets "moved," just substituted.
13. Bass
14. EGtr 1
15. EGtr 2
16. EGtr 3
Frontline Snake:
17. AcGtr 1
18. AcGtr 2
19. AcGtr 3
20. Key 1 L
21. Key 1 R
22. Key 2 L
23. Key 2 R
24. Click
25. Vox 1
26. Vox 2
27. Vox 3
28. Vox 4
29. Vox 5
30. Vox 6
31. Track L
32. Track R
I can accomodate more channels on stage since I have a GLD and 40 channels of stage box, but I've never needed it with this patch. Sometimes Elec. Gtr overflows into the acoustic channels, or we add horns there, or horns in keyboard channels, or something like that.. but I have rarely if ever had to reorder the patch to make it work and make sense.
Now I need a 32 channel board to accommodate this. The ui24r had my attention for awhile now but i really want physical faders as well as laptop\ipad control, mixing outdoors on a screen is a royal pia with the glare from the sun. This Wing looks interesting !
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience
- BrentEvans
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:38 am
- Location: Salisbury, NC
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
You’re doing combat audio with less than 32 channels? Dude... are you a masochist or something?CoronaOperator wrote: THANK YOU BRENT!!!! Bookmarked and saved.
Now I need a 32 channel board to accommodate this. The ui24r had my attention for awhile now but i really want physical faders as well as laptop\ipad control, mixing outdoors on a screen is a royal pia with the glare from the sun. This Wing looks interesting !
Wing might be good for you, but an x32 or M32 would be a fine fit for the meantime.
There are options that aren’t too bad cost wise. We can find you something that will work.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.
- BrentEvans
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:38 am
- Location: Salisbury, NC
Re: Behringer Wing announcement
Just FYI, This thigh showed up in the dealer portal recently. None in stock yet, but it would seem they’re serious about a January ship date.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.