Analog signal path

The hows and whys of running sound.
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David Raehn
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Re: Analog signal path

#16 Post by David Raehn » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:57 pm

You cannot do a brick-wall limiter in analogue.
If price is an issue, find a Behringer DCX2496.

It will cost a lot less than replacing drivers.

Grant Bunter
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Re: Analog signal path

#17 Post by Grant Bunter » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:18 am

David Raehn wrote:You cannot do a brick-wall limiter in analogue.
If price is an issue, find a Behringer DCX2496.

It will cost a lot less than replacing drivers.
Actually, because it has EQ and RTA in 1RU, the driveracks are better value than the DCX2496.
You need to pair a DCX2496 with a DEQ2496 to end up with that same functionality in 2RU of space if going Berry.
tactix wrote: Thanks for your thoughts on this and the link Grant. So yeah there are analog peak/brickwall limiters out there from the likes the Aphex or dbx but they're another piece of specialty gear to track down (the Aphex Dominator II 722 looks decent) and aren't that cheap. I don't think it's possible, used or new, to put together an analogue solution with the same functionality as the driverack units for a comparable price but it seems like an analogue only solution is to be had if you want it. At any rate your comments have made it clear that I'm not going to be able to use just any old limiter here. I appreciate the input.
I understand your want to do it analogue. My issue with analogue brick walling is not so much it is unachievable using analogue gear, but most commentary of analogue brick walling is referring to mixdown rather than live sound application. Even then, a good scout through various forums says using such devices sucks sound wise more often than not.

I dunno, a good analogue pre, analogue mixer, and a driverack seems like a way to get the best compromise result, without exorbitant cost...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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tactix
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Re: Analog signal path

#18 Post by tactix » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:58 pm

Grant Bunter wrote:
I understand your want to do it analogue. My issue with analogue brick walling is not so much it is unachievable using analogue gear, but most commentary of analogue brick walling is referring to mixdown rather than live sound application. Even then, a good scout through various forums says using such devices sucks sound wise more often than not.

I dunno, a good analogue pre, analogue mixer, and a driverack seems like a way to get the best compromise result, without exorbitant cost...
Yeah, I guess I'd have to hear the Aphex Dominator II which seemed to have been used quite a lot in live sound applications.
I guess I don't understand how Bill's designs could be so different from previous approaches to speaker cabinets that they can't live in a world without a digital limiter. PA's existed before 2007. But I get how these units make your job easier and maybe they do a better job. A DBX Driverack is certainly a more practical solution.

CoronaOperator
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Re: Analog signal path

#19 Post by CoronaOperator » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:28 pm

tactix wrote: I guess I don't understand how Bill's designs could be so different from previous approaches to speaker cabinets that they can't live in a world without a digital limiter. PA's existed before 2007. But I get how these units make your job easier and maybe they do a better job. A DBX Driverack is certainly a more practical solution.
The thing with horns is that you can't hear the drivers complain before they give out. It'll sound great then dead air. In the old days amplifiers weren't putting out 6000 watts of power like they can nowadays. Re-coning drivers was also weekly maintenance for the bigger operators, sometimes after each show. I mean if you don't want to use a limiter you could take your chances, just make sure you at least double your sub count so that they are just coasting along.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
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In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Grant Bunter
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Re: Analog signal path

#20 Post by Grant Bunter » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:37 pm

tactix wrote: Yeah, I guess I'd have to hear the Aphex Dominator II which seemed to have been used quite a lot in live sound applications.
I guess I don't understand how Bill's designs could be so different from previous approaches to speaker cabinets that they can't live in a world without a digital limiter. PA's existed before 2007. But I get how these units make your job easier and maybe they do a better job. A DBX Driverack is certainly a more practical solution.
Nope, PA is not new. And Bill's approaches aren't new either, in many ways.

The simple truth of the matter is that any type of cab (be it direct radiator, horn, whatever) should be brick wall limited if you have the capability, and lot's of people should invest in that capability. That investment is peanuts compared to the cost of constantly buying new drivers or recone kits.

Back in the analogue only days, brick wall limiting was either unachievable (depending on your point of view), or horribly expensive. Weekend warriors for example, would spend the same money on (perhaps many other) something(s) else instead. Perhaps it was only the front runners that ever tried it, and everyone else thought it was to geeky?

That modern DSP's have brick wall limiting capability is more than a bonus.
To achieve all that these units can do (in units that occupy 1-2RU) back in the day, took a good chunk of rack space. Not to mention cost.
A 1RU device that has High pass/low pass in each band, crossover, brick wall limiting, dynamic limiting, EQ, RTA, delay and so on, is a lot of power at your fingertips.
And increasing the amounts assignable outputs (depending on what you have as DSP) certainly increases flexibility and solutions that were previously more problematic.

I think one of the issues is the concept that analogue sounds better. We all know playing vinyl at home on our hifi systems sounds warmer/fuller. Does that convert to the same experience with larger PA systems in larger rooms? I'm not convinced it does. Otherwise we would never have seen Dolby getting into the act to remove the one inherent feature of analogue no one ever liked; noise floor/hiss.
By the same token, certain types of digital recording formats sound better than others.

I think, for you, rather than buying a unit, could you dry hire a driverack for a couple of days and have a play around with it? That little piece of digital in an otherwise analogue chain might not seem such a big deal after all.

It should also be mentioned that your T30's, being horn subs, will sound quite different to direct radiators, if that's what you have used previously. Horn subs filter harmonics, so they do sound different from the outset. That can take some getting used to..
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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tactix
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Re: Analog signal path

#21 Post by tactix » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:39 pm

Grant Bunter wrote:
A 1RU device that has High pass/low pass in each band, crossover, brick wall limiting, dynamic limiting, EQ, RTA, delay and so on, is a lot of power at your fingertips.
And increasing the amounts assignable outputs (depending on what you have as DSP) certainly increases flexibility and solutions that were previously more problematic.
I think this is the crux of the matter. The digital loudspeaker management systems may very well be a better technical solution. More importantly, they, as you are implying and other have pointed out directly, deliver a great deal of bang for the buck. I'm just saying they aren't the only solution.
Grant Bunter wrote: I think one of the issues is the concept that analogue sounds better. We all know playing vinyl at home on our hifi systems sounds warmer/fuller. Does that convert to the same experience with larger PA systems in larger rooms? I'm not convinced it does. Otherwise we would never have seen Dolby getting into the act to remove the one inherent feature of analogue no one ever liked; noise floor/hiss.
By the same token, certain types of digital recording formats sound better than others.

I think, for you, rather than buying a unit, could you dry hire a driverack for a couple of days and have a play around with it? That little piece of digital in an otherwise analogue chain might not seem such a big deal after all.
I'm sure that a 100% analogue system is noisier than a largely digital system but when you're driving dance music through it I'm not sure it matters because there aren't quiet passages. Conceptually, I'm also not convinced either way which would sound "better". Perhaps we can ask if something sounds "right" though. In an ideal world I could A/B a rig and make a decision weighing sound quality, expense, and convenience. The understanding I'm getting from this discussion however is that it's probably not, at this point anyway, something I should be worrying about because the convenience of these units will free me up to deal with more important things - like putting on a good show. Still, l'm worried about the driverack solution because of my partners' technophobia which will likely leave the responsibility for running the sound squarely on my shoulders. As such the PA2 system with its setup wizard and such is looking more attractive. [/quote]
Grant Bunter wrote:It should also be mentioned that your T30's, being horn subs, will sound quite different to direct radiators, if that's what you have used previously. Horn subs filter harmonics, so they do sound different from the outset. That can take some getting used to..
Indeed- I'm just going to have to build the bloody things and find out aren't I? :lol:

Many thanks.

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Re: Analog signal path

#22 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:38 pm

tactix wrote: The understanding I'm getting from this discussion however is that it's probably not, at this point anyway, something I should be worrying about because the convenience of these units will free me up to deal with more important things - like putting on a good show. Still, l'm worried about the driverack solution because of my partners' technophobia which will likely leave the responsibility for running the sound squarely on my shoulders. As such the PA2 system with its setup wizard and such is looking more attractive.
Given that if you went with an analogue solution (or attempted to lol), you would end up with a rack with multiple units sitting in it, and that still will likely not appeal to a technophobe either.
So it seems which ever way you go you will end up running sound.

Once you've got everything set up, whichever way you go, largely the only thing you need to alter, venue to venue, is EQ, to tune the PA to the room.

If you decide to go with a driverack, don't use the setup wizard!
Do a custom set up. Plenty of people will help with that.
tactix wrote:Many thanks.
No worries...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Analog signal path

#23 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:15 pm

Grant Bunter wrote: If you decide to go with a driverack, don't use the setup wizard!
Amen
Amen
Amen!

Use the Auto EQ, but not the setup wizard.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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BrentEvans
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Re: Analog signal path

#24 Post by BrentEvans » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:24 am

The Driverack setup wizard works just fine as long as you select "not listed" for all of your amps and speakers, and it provides an easy way to get a mono summed subs setup. Selecting 'NOT LISTED' bypasses the gain structure part of the wizard, because it doesn't have enough info to calculate that. On a Venu360, it's MUCH easier to set it up with the setup wizard if you don't have it on a network, and even then it makes it easier.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

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