Replacing a EMX 5000

The hows and whys of running sound.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
subharmonic
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:57 pm
Location: Mandan ND

Replacing a EMX 5000

#1 Post by subharmonic » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:08 pm

So I am starting to test the waters on what a great for the money mixers run. Our church has a old Yamaha EMX 5000 board that they were running Peavy tops off the boards amp. The board is introducing a rolling buzz (comes and goes every 1-3 minutes, 50hz-ish) and has seen better days so I want to budget for a new one, maybe by a gate or lifter to put in front of it for now.

A couple years ago I took things over and started dropping in some of my DJ rig. I am looking for the BFD of mixers, the Grado 80 of mixers, the used Ashly fet/ftx amps of mixers, the Toyota/Lexus FJ-80s of mixers....something that is equal to similar if not better than most things triple its price point, if you get my drift.

I would like 16 channels, obviously priority 1 is reliable, followed closely by SQ. Not a lot of bells and whistles are needed. I have an outboad berry virtualizer I can use. Also any pointers to improve system. My current setup chain is:
mic got straight to board
instruments hit DI and comp (Ashly) or comp limiter (DBX)
Yamaha EMX 5000
Ashly GEQ231
Berry DCX (limits, delays, and main/sub x-over)
Ashly FTX-2001 - DR250 x2
Ashly FTX-2001- (XR-1 card) T39s

What price range of Analog or Digital mixer are we looking at? Benefits of either? I like the idea of being able to mix from where people stand but price pending for a full digital setup I think it is out of reach.

So what is new/used. Is this even feasible in the mixer category?
$500 option
$1000 option
$1500 is probably top end I would ask for, small church and all.
2x T39, 1x T60, 1x THTLP, 1x AT(not built by me) 6x DR250
I need more bass

But this gal's built like a burlap bag full of bobcats
CW Mcall

dyermaker8
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:39 am
Location: Campbellsville, Ky

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#2 Post by dyermaker8 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:08 pm

seems legit,. Soundcraft Signature 22 MTK $800 ,. analog board with digital outs via usb on every channel for advanced processing/capture via PC

kkip
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:24 pm
Location: Dayton, OH

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#3 Post by kkip » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:25 pm

For traditional style digital mixers the PreSonus StudioLive 16.4.2 and the Behringer x32 are both very good. I would guess that these are probably two of the most popular mixers used for worship these days. If you want to do something completely non-tranditional, the Behringer X-Air 18 is pretty awesome digital rack mount mixer. But you would need a wifi router and an iPad, tablet or computer to control it (it doesn't have a control surface). PreSonus has the RM16 and Soundcraft has the Ui16 which are both similar. I have personally used both the Behringer and PreSonus. Both are very good but the Berhinger is nearly half the price. I was a little apprehensive about running everything from an iPad. But after a few shows, I am totally comfortable with it.

After having made the transition from analog to digital board five or six years ago, using an analog board feels a little like driving a classic car. Found memories, lot's of nostalgia, but it still feels like a museum piece.
4 x T39 - 20" - 3012LF (Built 2)
4 x OT12 - 2512 - Melded/D220Ti
1 x TAT - GTO804

KJ4BXT
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:37 am
Location: Northern Virginia (Fairfax) USA

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#4 Post by KJ4BXT » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:08 pm

If you're willing to go used, a Yamaha 01v96 can be found for $500-$1000. Maybe a little more than you need, but for a mostly consistent setup I've found the presets and per channel digital PEQ to be very handy.
I put one in at my church, and also use one personally (01V97VCM V2). Lots of routing options. One note, inputs 13-16 are 1/4", but you can use a XLR - TRS adapter. (just to clarify since you said 16 inputs)
I've also set it up with a computer that I can remote into and do some remote adjustment from a tablet too, but I hate mixing on touchscreens.
Also, if you ever need more channels, you can add 16 (24 but it gets complicated) additional I/O via ADAT and a converter box. If you're going digital on a budget, highly recommend this mixer.
---------------------------
meyers at my job, BFM for my system
2x 24" T48 with 3015lf
2x DR250 with 2510 and melded array

Other hardware comes and goes, but these speakers stay.

alexk
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#5 Post by alexk » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:58 am

Behringer X18 ($400) or XR18 ($700). You'll need either a PC (cheap laptop) or a tablet (cheap android) to control it, and you'll want an external router (also a cheapie) to connect it all wirelessly.

The brand has a bad name, but the x-air line is pretty incredible. I've used several over a good 30 shows and have only one complaint - it's built in wireless is terrible (hence the router). The ability to move anywhere in the house and adjust the sound is amazing, plus the thing sounds very neutral and detailed.

16 mic inputs, each with its own separate gate, compressor, and parametric eq. 4 effects busses with a ton of available effects. 100 band RTA on all channels, 31 band eq on each output. And if you want to record, you can record all channels individually at the same time, straight into a DAW.

It will replace your compressors, mixer, and eq and do a great job at it =)

The only thing it lacks that I'm not sure you have:
- automatic feedback control (easily had through a $30 DBX goRack if you want it)

kkip
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:24 pm
Location: Dayton, OH

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#6 Post by kkip » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:48 am

If you're considering any of the Behringer mixers and you're not in a hurry, keep an eye on the Music Group eBay store. I have seen refurb X-Air 18s for $540 and X-32s for $1300. They all come with a 3-year warranty (if you register within 90 days). The available inventory changed daily.

http://www.ebay.com/usr/musicgroup1
4 x T39 - 20" - 3012LF (Built 2)
4 x OT12 - 2512 - Melded/D220Ti
1 x TAT - GTO804

User avatar
subharmonic
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:57 pm
Location: Mandan ND

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#7 Post by subharmonic » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:48 pm

Thanks guys those all seem like solid suggestions.. We are not in a hurry so I figured find what I want, get it in the budget and wait to snipe a deal on it. We only have 4 instruments (2 guitar, bass and keys), 6 mics, and 2 aux in at the moment. I would like to mic the drums at some point, thinking 1 boom and 1 at the kick, GLS ES57 probably and something else for the kick, that will be another thread.

I like the Behringer Air idea but there seems to be as many cons as pros. First off I just pulled a DEQ 2496 and put the Ashly graphic in its place. In my opinion it is a serious upgrade in the SQ arena. So that leads me to think the mixer may be a downgrade. However putting a mixer in the main rack kills some potential grounding issues and going wifi would be awesome as our booth location as usual sounds nothing like the rest of the room. But then you have to have another part to make it work, one that could easily walk away, fall, break, forget to be charged, etc. As I am not always running the board that could be an issue. Also wifi is pretty solid nowadays but there is always chances of crashed routers etc. The local shop has one of these mixers so I will check it out, in particular the control surface. Also clearing the rack(s) would be nice as we are already set to run new wires as the 1950s ones are picking up hums (romex is illegally strung all over the place) and wall jacks have tons of slop.

As I don't mind used high quality gear as you may gather from my original post I may pursue the Yamaha 01v96. Looks like you can get them all day for $600-800 used version pending, but given new they are $2000+ that seems like my kind of deals. I need to check the footprint vs the desk. I could do a RDP session in connected computer/wireless usb or similar to talk to the board from where the wife and kids sit. It also looks like it could reduce the racks (aka fund the board). Since it is reminiscent of the old board it would be minimal issues getting everyone on board. Time to watch hours of youtube vids on it.

The Presonus and SC were already on the radar but wasn't sure how good they were etc.

Do you guys recommend hold the EMX as a backup for a just in case or are mixers pretty solid? It would never leave the church.

****edit to correct DCX to DEQ***
Last edited by subharmonic on Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
2x T39, 1x T60, 1x THTLP, 1x AT(not built by me) 6x DR250
I need more bass

But this gal's built like a burlap bag full of bobcats
CW Mcall

User avatar
Rick Lee
Posts: 1220
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:01 pm
Location: Tullahoma, Tennessee

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#8 Post by Rick Lee » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:01 pm

+1 on the Behringer XR18 and buying it on the eBay musicgroup1 site. If you want knobs to twiddle but don't need as many channels get the X32 Producer. Well within budget and the sound is stellar. You can also control it with a tablet or phone. It isn't a downgrade in SQ. You won't need your old board as a backup.

If you're a sound snob they also carry Midas on the same site.
Authorized Builder
Nashville/Middle Tennessee

bwtaudio@gmail.com

kkip
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:24 pm
Location: Dayton, OH

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#9 Post by kkip » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:51 am

Rick Lee wrote: It isn't a downgrade in SQ.
Absolutely! Not only will it not be a downgrade, it will likely be a huge upgrade in sound quality. This will be true of any decent digital board. The ability to setup a gate on each channel will help with feedback control, digital compressors will dramatically improve your mix especially vocal harmony, multiple effect will add depth and a parametric EQ on every channel will improve tone. Keep in mind that all of the Berry X series mixers were developed after they acquired Midas. The quality of these mixers is as good as or better than anything else in the the mid-grade market. Much better than their old stuff like the Eurodesk line, which is complete junk in my opinion.

I recently helped a friend's band convert their PA from an A&H analog board, rack full of effects and giant heavy snake to one XR18 and an iPad. They are delighted to say the least. Their sound improved and the setup time was dramatically reduced. In a pinch, if the sound guys isn't available, they can run sound from the stage.
4 x T39 - 20" - 3012LF (Built 2)
4 x OT12 - 2512 - Melded/D220Ti
1 x TAT - GTO804

User avatar
subharmonic
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:57 pm
Location: Mandan ND

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#10 Post by subharmonic » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:35 am

kkip wrote:
Rick Lee wrote: It isn't a downgrade in SQ.
Absolutely! Not only will it not be a downgrade, it will likely be a huge upgrade in sound quality.
Interesting. I always thought the DEQ2496 was supposed to be the bomb in terms of SQ with specs making it colorless, but not a AB comparison the used Ashly EQ made the whole system sound better. The DEQ didn't sound bad just a little....lifeless if you will. I don't have anything to quantify that except 3 sets of ears. I have never used a Eurodesk but also did read not so good stuff about them. It is not that I don't believe you guys just need to wrap my head around this.

I do like the idea of the X32 producer.

Again I appreciate everyones help on this.
2x T39, 1x T60, 1x THTLP, 1x AT(not built by me) 6x DR250
I need more bass

But this gal's built like a burlap bag full of bobcats
CW Mcall

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6433
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#11 Post by Bruce Weldy » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:21 am

I used some Behringer EQs at the church where I used to mix. They really sucked the signal down. Take it out of line and everything just sounded better.....but, I needed the EQ, so it stayed in line. Don't even consider a Eurodesk - they are junk.

As far as the digital board, I've been using Presonus for several years now - have two of the 16.4.2 classic models. No failures ever.

Recently have been hired to mix some shows at a local venue that has an Behringer X32. I'm starting to get it under my belt some and it's a nice desk. The Presonus is quicker to learn especially if you have any volunteers helping out with no experience. The X32 would be intimidating to a novice.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

User avatar
subharmonic
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:57 pm
Location: Mandan ND

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#12 Post by subharmonic » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:15 pm

Would the AES digital output on the x32 Compact work with the AES digital input on my DCX2496 crossover? Are there any generation or version limitations?
2x T39, 1x T60, 1x THTLP, 1x AT(not built by me) 6x DR250
I need more bass

But this gal's built like a burlap bag full of bobcats
CW Mcall

David Raehn
Posts: 670
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:56 pm
Location: Colonial Beach VA

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#13 Post by David Raehn » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:39 pm

AES goes into input A on the DCX. This will become A and B in the rest of the menu settings.

I had forgotten about this... :clap:

kkip
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:24 pm
Location: Dayton, OH

Re: Replacing a EMX 5000

#14 Post by kkip » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:23 pm

The x32 Compact would be an excellent choice. If you added a wireless router, you could also control it with a tablet or laptop. So you still would have the ability to move around the room if you choose. Another nice feature is that you would have the ability to add the P-16 in-ear monitor system for a very modest cost anytime in the future. Compare this to the system I use at my church: Yamaha LS-9 board with an Aviom in-ear system. Probably $20K+ worth of equipment with less capability than you would have.
4 x T39 - 20" - 3012LF (Built 2)
4 x OT12 - 2512 - Melded/D220Ti
1 x TAT - GTO804

Post Reply