Live Sound - Vocals are buried and unintelligible

[KTOKTO]

Should I just bite the bullet and get something like a Behringer DEQ2496?

Take advantage of guitar'd center's return policy and give it a shot. If you don't like it return it.

I'm boycotting GC or I would

Please bear with me here, rookie question. Will I need any more gear beyond the deq2496 and a measuring mic like the behringer ecm8000?

Thanks again!

[BoostFab]

pretty cool RTA with the ECM8000 and the iPad

[KTOKTO]

Well I set up the PA in the basement tonight. Bear with me as I'm still learning but this is what I did.

The path from me to the omnitop 15's is

Shure SM58 > Behringer 1832usb Mixer > Behringer FBQ3102 EQ > BBE MAX X2 Xover > Behringer Europower 2000 amp > Omnitop 15s

1) On the mixer, set the main slider and vocal channel slider to 0

2) Set the low/mid/high dials to 0

3) set the gain to level where I was not clipping when I sang my loudest.

4) Set the EQ to 0 on all frequencies and output level


I noticed as I started to take mids out, things got better. I put the high and low dials on the vocal channel to about 3 o' clock and complete turned down the mid as far as possible.

I had my eq set on 6db range on the sliders but I couldn't seem to take enough mid out. I changed the range to 12db and I started to get some better results as I really started taking out mid range.

I still need to see how it sounds with the rest of the band but I really feel I could still take a lot more mid out of my vocals.

[Gregory East]

Basement is one of the worse places you could do that sort of thing.

1st order of business is Eqing your tops to be relatively flat, in a flat field. You probably don't have a flat field that is dry and available with electric power. What you can do is apply "cold" a reverse EQ to the response graph published in SPL charts. That's your base EQ.

Then play tunes in your basement and EQ the system to make that sound acceptable in the basement but remember your base EQ for when you go into a real room.

Now play about with EQ'ing your vocals in their own channel only, not using the system EQ.

[Dave Non-Zero]

the omnitop15s will have way more mid capabilities than your monitors, so what seems bright in your monitors will be seem low-middy in the onmis. if you are using an sm58 then i have to take loads of low mids out to make it sound good. and thats with my system set fairly flat.

so to sum up, like others have said, you need to get your system eq set, then everything will get better.

Ive know engineers to eq the FOH system eq to sound good with a live vocal first, to make sure it will cut thru, then it requires less work on the channel strip to eq the vocal. the rest of the band will be easy compared to the vocal since we are all so sensitive to how a voice sounds.

[Greg Plouvier]

Make sure you're not using the sonic maximizer section of the crossover - turn that crap off.

[Gregory East]

Ive know engineers to eq the FOH system eq to sound good with a live vocal first, to make sure it will cut thru, then it requires less work on the channel strip to eq the vocal. the rest of the band will be easy compared to the vocal since we are all so sensitive to how a voice sounds.

That could explain the "lovely vocals with bass guitar that sounded like it was coming from the basement" I heard the other day.

[jswingchun]

Should I just bite the bullet and get something like a Behringer DEQ2496?

That's what I did. The DEQ and the reference mic. You haven't put in your profile where you are from so it may be a bit cold to do it, but if you can find a large open space with electricity, set up your system. Run the RTA to see where your system is and then EQ to what you see on the RTA or let the auto-eq do the job. You have to be somewhere open enough to not have a lot of reflections.

I transferred that EQ from the RTA manually as close as I could into the parametric EQs on my XTi2000 so I would still have the EQ in the DEQ to play with for room tuning.

[dswpro]

Vocal mixing is an art. Your voices may sound great in the monitors b/c there is little else there.
Most bands suffer from poor vocal mixes (IMHO) for a variety of reasons.

1) Vocals are simply under-mixed.
In a live setting, you do not need to run instruments thorough the mix as loudly as you might in the studio, sine their stage volume enters the room. Try removing ALL keys, guitars (except bass) or other mid-range sources which are amplified on stage form the mix, or reduce them greatly, only bringing them up during a solo.

2) You are unable to get adequate volume before feedback.
This is where an EQ can help, but only to a certain degree. Speaker positioning can contribute to feedback as well as the quality of the microphones ( I happen to like the Sennheiser 835 as opposed to Shure 58s or 57s) In addition a digital mixer has other tools that go a long way to reducing feedback. I highly recommend one such as the Yamaha 01v-96. You can add digital delays to the outputs ( try 10-20 Ms) to reduce feedback and you can add compression and gating to vocals.

3) Dynamics of the band and vocals are poorly controlled.
I am a BIG fan of compressors. Especially on vocals, drums, and the bass guitar.
A vocal compressor will even out the dynamics of a singer, making the louder passages softer, effectively raising the average volume of the vocal notes. Try a 2:1 ratio with a 10-15 Ms attack time. You may need to add some gain ( +2-4 db) after the compression to get the volume you need.

I do a LOT of live mixing and carry a small digital console for smaller gigs. ( I have a Yamaha 03D with an outboard 8 channel ADAT pre-amp) this little mixer gives me 4 band parametric EQ on all inputs and outputs. Time delay on ins and outs. Compression on all inputs and outputs.

You can hear some simple recordings I've done with this mixer at: http://acash.com/getonup/

[KTOKTO]

I purchaced the 1/3 octave version of TrueRTA and a Behringer ecm8000.

I ran some pink noise through the omnitops and adjusted the EQ accordingly to what I was seeing in true RTA.

It was a quick test but everything sounded very nice even for the basement.

I need to do a little more research on how to properly configure and use TrueRTA to flatten the PA but I think I am on the right track.

Thanks again for the assistance.

[stinkfinger]

Sorry if I missed it but what mic are you using for your vocals? There is a reason the SM58 is the most live used mic in the world. That being said, I have first hand experience with running into china rip-offs of these which have horrible bandwidth. Taking into account that a bulk of your gear is Behringer, no doubt cost was a huge factor in getting a PA purchased. Nothing wrong with that. Been there myself. I have found Behringer to be hit and miss on quality. Just be sure to do some A/B comparisons with other mics of the same brand/model to be sure you are starting out with a good signal source. My favorite was a buddy of mine who was sold some Sampson mics from a local music store. (salesman) "They sound every bit as good as a 58 and you get 3 for the cost of 1 58!" FAIL

[Gregory East]

Nothing wrong with my Behringer xm8500. It's B'ringer's "take" on the 58.

[KTOKTO]

I am using a SM58 for the vocals and a behringer 8500 to milk the guitar.


Another quick question.

I see another option in TrueRTA to "Open House Curve" and "Use Inverse House Curve" and the program comes with 2 files, one for small room and one for large room. I am unsure what this option does or if I should use it or not when flattening the PA. From reading the manual, it seems like this is used in home theater applications, not live sound.

Thanks again for the help.

[Bruce Weldy]

........and a behringer 8500 to milk the guitar.

Best warm your hands first so it doesn't kick you.

[Tom Smit]

........and a behringer 8500 to milk the guitar.

Best warm your hands first so it doesn't kick you.

I tried but couldn't come up with anything. Good one, Bruce!