Titan 39 Build

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88h88
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#181 Post by 88h88 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:42 am

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:45 pm
Be thankful, the damn things clog up the roads. What's worse is that today's uberpickups don't have more capacity or space than those of yore, they're just bigger for no good reason. Worse, I'd say half, if not more, are purchased as passenger vehicles, not working trucks. Conspicuous consumption is the American way.
I found this yesterday on SUVs which was an interesting read. I love psychology and having a guy who actually worked in the car industry in this area is fairly eye opening. In there it says the auto industry's own research shows that between 1 and 13 percent of SUV owners use their car off road and that they count off road as flat dirt roads so they're essentially just ego purchases which I imagine is the same for a lot of trucks...

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/m7q7 ... ly-selfish
Bradsher’s book is a thorough examination of how the auto industry convinced millions of Americans to buy vehicles that were more dangerous (for themselves and other people on the road), got worse gas mileage, were worse for the environment, and got them to pay a premium for the privilege of doing so.

Car companies managed this remarkable feat because they ran—and continue to run—quite possibly the most sophisticated marketing operations on the planet. They knew what people really wanted: to project an image of selfish superiority. And then they sold it to them at a markup.

The picture they painted of prospective SUV buyers was perhaps the most unflattering portrait of the American way of life ever devised. It doubled as a profound and lucid critique of the American ethos, one that has only gained sharper focus in the years since. And that portrait is largely the result of one consultant who worked for Chrysler, Ford, and GM during the SUV boom: Clotaire Rapaille.

Rapaille, a French emigree, believed the SUV appealed—at the time to mostly upper-middle class suburbanites—to a fundamental subconscious animalistic state, our “reptilian desire for survival,” as relayed by Bradsher. (“We don’t believe what people say,” the website for Rapaille’s consulting firm declares. Instead, they use “a unique blend of biology, cultural anthropology and psychology to discover the hidden cultural forces that pre-organize the way people behave towards a product, service or concept”). Americans were afraid, Rapaille found through his exhaustive market research, and they were mostly afraid of crime even though crime was actually falling and at near-record lows. As Bradsher wrote, “People buy SUVs, he tells auto executives, because they are trying to look as menacing as possible to allay their fears of crime and other violence.” They, quite literally, bought SUVs to run over “gang members” with, Rapaille found.

Perhaps this sounds farfetched, but the auto industry’s own studies agreed with this general portrait of SUV buyers. Bradsher described that portrait, comprised of marketing reports from the major automakers, as follows:

Who has been buying SUVs since automakers turned them into family vehicles? They tend to be people who are insecure and vain. They are frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self-centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors or communities.
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Charles Jenkinson
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#182 Post by Charles Jenkinson » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:18 am

Gotta say, this is an epic thread, my wife's ego is bigger than mine (when it comes to cars), and she doesn't build speakers, ...but is still a keeper.
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#183 Post by SethRocksYou » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:13 pm

Bryan Cox wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:25 pm
...At the very least I'll get some more appropriately sized class D amps. But I don't like the idea of them cutting to 50% power when taxed.
In that thread, the point was that you should be able to expect 49 volts under operating conditions.

The 50% that Brent was talking about is the same thing Bruce has bee saying. Which is, the numbers they use for marketing are inflated. They are.

49 volts isn't all too bad. However, if you wanted full potential out of your Titans, you could set them up the same way Bruce has done with his Crown XLS1500/T39's. Bridge each NX3000D giving you 98 volts to work with. Limit voltage at 55 and run two Titans per amp (4 ohm load). Then get another amp for your tops. This configuration would get the most out of your subs with headroom to spare.

You might even just hook them up this way and test it out without tops. You my find that it's difficult to tell the difference and not worth the added trouble, cost, pack space, weight, and complexity. On the other hand, it may be worth it, just knowing you're not leaving anything on the table and are able to wring out every bit of useful performance they have to offer. I could see talking myself into either frame of mind. Ultimately up to you.

Just some options.

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#184 Post by Bryan Cox » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:14 pm

SethRocksYou wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:13 pm
Bryan Cox wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:25 pm
...At the very least I'll get some more appropriately sized class D amps. But I don't like the idea of them cutting to 50% power when taxed.
In that thread, the point was that you should be able to expect 49 volts under operating conditions.

The 50% that Brent was talking about is the same thing Bruce has bee saying. Which is, the numbers they use for marketing are inflated. They are.

49 volts isn't all too bad. However, if you wanted full potential out of your Titans, you could set them up the same way Bruce has done with his Crown XLS1500/T39's. Bridge each NX3000D giving you 98 volts to work with. Limit voltage at 55 and run two Titans per amp (4 ohm load). Then get another amp for your tops. This configuration would get the most out of your subs with headroom to spare.

You might even just hook them up this way and test it out without tops. You my find that it's difficult to tell the difference and not worth the added trouble, cost, pack space, weight, and complexity. On the other hand, it may be worth it, just knowing you're not leaving anything on the table and are able to wring out every bit of useful performance they have to offer. I could see talking myself into either frame of mind. Ultimately up to you.

Just some options.
Thanks Seth. I've been contemplating those exact things. I think I've talked myself into upgrading my amps anyway for added reliability and peace of mind. Don't get me wrong, the Behringer's are fine for what I'm doing right now. But I'd rather have something more reliable. Also, if 49 VAC is the max they can put out during continuous operation, I'd feel more comfortable with something I'd have to limit but does the 50 VAC without breaking a sweat.

In that case, I'll use the Behringers as back up amps. Not bad little amps for sure. I really like them. And I've never had an issue with any Behringer product I've owned. But there is a cause behind the hyperbole. Not only that, Murphy resides in my house so it's only matter of time before I get kicked in the pants. 😆
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#185 Post by SethRocksYou » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:21 am

Bryan Cox wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:14 pm
Thanks Seth. I've been contemplating those exact things. I think I've talked myself into upgrading my amps anyway for added reliability and peace of mind. Don't get me wrong, the Behringer's are fine for what I'm doing right now. But I'd rather have something more reliable. Also, if 49 VAC is the max they can put out during continuous operation, I'd feel more comfortable with something I'd have to limit but does the 50 VAC without breaking a sweat.

In that case, I'll use the Behringers as back up amps. Not bad little amps for sure. I really like them. And I've never had an issue with any Behringer product I've owned. But there is a cause behind the hyperbole. Not only that, Murphy resides in my house so it's only matter of time before I get kicked in the pants. 😆
Not a bad plan. Here's my take on the whole Behringer amp thing. They put out what they put out and they seem to be doing it reliably.

However, they do come with a stigma that their past products, marketing, and price point have earned. While I believe they've successfully pulled their reputation up above what used to be considered on par with Pyle, the bottom of the barrel. Just my observation of the market, but overall quality of their DSP, digtal mixers, and latest amplifier lines has put them on the map and they took a big bite out of the market. Nearly leading the market in those categories. X32 mixers are everywhere and have seemingly become somewhat of a defacto standard in churches and small to medium-large sound companies the world over.

The Behringer stigma still has a death grip on our perception of quality. Or, maybe it's just social acceptability. You can hear it every time Bruce talks about his. He always leads off with this great excuse of why he has one and excuses it as being okay because it's "only" for the monitors. He hates owning that thing. Not because it's bad, but because he believes everyone else thinks so. There's nothing wrong with that. He's right.

So, here's what I think the "real" issue is. Do you really want to show up to the class reunion in a Kia Rio? Or, wouldn't you rather pull up in something a little more prestigious? Doesn't have to be the top of the line... Just not something socially looked down upon. Right?

Especially given we're using non commercially produced speakers. If you show up with Behringer amps ... your speakers are homemade. Couldn't afford real speakers. You're not likely to be taken too seriously no matter how good they sound. One thing if it's for your own band. Another if your providing sound for money. May as well show up unshaven, belly hanging out of your unbuttoned flannel cut-off tank top, cut off jean shorts, dirty WalMart brand Crocky's, stinking of beer and cigarettes. Right or wrong, that's the reality of social acceptance. Shoot, I own Behringer stuff and still, in the back of my mind, I think someone's not taking things seriously if I see they're running behringer amps. Even though there's nothing wrong with them except for their inflated marketing.

On the other hand, if you show up with mainstream recognized professional brand name amplifiers and equipment... your speakers are professionally designed, custom built speakers that vastly outperform anything you can get from a Guitar Center.

Even more prestige with premium amps. Lab Groupon, CAMCO, Ashly, etc. When your amps are $2-3K+ each, there's not a damn thing the less than educated Joe can say about your speakers except "wow". Completely exclusive of how they actually sound. People hear what they think they should hear.

Ooooooh, you're using Bose speakers... drewl. (not) As stupid as it is, it's the truth of how our minds assess quality a lot of the time. If they met on a nude beach, a Behringer amp powering Bill Fitzmaurice speakers would shamelessly embarrass most anything mainstream Bose has to offer. Yet Bose gets the up & down nod, while Behringer get's the left & right nod.

Anyway, quite the ramble. There it is, my psychological evaluation of the relationship between human being and Behringer amplifiers.



I don't know how many of you recall when MTX (car audio) was considered the same junk as Pyle. It took a little time but they earned a place as a serious contender in the market with all the other major manufacturers. It's my feeling that Behringer is on it's way up too. They're putting out some good stuff now-a-days. A lot of it.
Last edited by SethRocksYou on Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:18 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#186 Post by SethRocksYou » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:30 am

What do ugly chicks, mopeds, and Behringer amplifiers have in common?

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#187 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:42 am

Bryan Cox wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:13 am
Never knew the plethora of information until I came here.
Mmmm good isn't it :)
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#188 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:53 am

Here's my take on Behringer.
Some items are good, some not.
Amps, processors seem to be good in general, and at their price point they put people into somewhere they want to be.
While any brand can fail, at any time, my issue is this:
I have a number of the same Behringer item from different production periods, and they have all failed the same way, so, at no time, has an effort been made to improve the product, or prevent it failing.
You get what you pay for.

It turns out I can get lightly used, more rider friendly, and more reliable gear, for either less than, about the same as, or slightly more than a similar Behringer product new. And that's the way I'll go these days.
My main issue with the amps is, the NU6000, as an example, never can nor will be a 6000W amp...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#189 Post by SethRocksYou » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:29 am

Grant Bunter wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:53 am
Here's my take on Behringer.
Some items are good, some not.
Amps, processors seem to be good in general, and at their price point they put people into somewhere they want to be.
While any brand can fail, at any time, my issue is this:
I have a number of the same Behringer item from different production periods, and they have all failed the same way, so, at no time, has an effort been made to improve the product, or prevent it failing.
You get what you pay for.

It turns out I can get lightly used, more rider friendly, and more reliable gear, for either less than, about the same as, or slightly more than a similar Behringer product new. And that's the way I'll go these days.
My main issue with the amps is, the NU6000, as an example, never can nor will be a 6000W amp...
I have 5 Behringer mic's, 2 digital mixers, the DCX, DEQ, two amps, a couple DI boxes, and a few other Behringer bits 'n pieces and haven't had an issue with any of them yet.
Please, do share what the "item" is, that you've had repeated issues with. I'm more than happy to know and avoid known problem items :thumbsup:

I' completely agree with you, their amp wattage ratings are frustrating. But, now that we know what it does do, we can at least count on it for that. Would be nice to minimally have a true RMS rating published in their manual or datasheet somewhere. Oh well.


And I'm SO with you on the second hand gear. I've found really really good, darn near unbelievable deals on Ashly amplifiers recently. I just picked up another one a couple days ago, an NE800PE, $125 to the door. That's a $1500 amp when new. https://www.adorama.com/asne800pe.html 225 wpc @8Ohm, 400@ 4Ohm, 800 Bridged 8 Ohm, all RMS. It has phenomenal DSP and can even provide DSP for another amplifier, connected to it's aux outs. 4 channels of DSP. A couple months ago I got 2 PE1800's... Serious amps, 20amp plugs, 1800w rms bridged @ 8 ohms, 450/900 per channel at 8/4ohms... RMS. One has the DSP, the other (slave) doesn't. I actually won those two on an ebay auction. Winning bid was a whopping $105.17, for both amps! Did cost $80 to ship them. But still, an unbelievable deal! If you're not familiar with Ashly (I wasn't until recently), they've been in business since the '70's, amps are Made In The USA, all power ratings are RMS, and if/when you email or call for customer support, you speak to someone that has an oscilloscope on their desk/workbench and they're super friendly, responding with long thoughtfully written personalized emails. Like human beings who care and are genuinely happy to help out. I've acquired about 10 Ashly amps now. Don't think I need any more, but it's so hard to pass up some of these deals!

I don't know if they're rider friendly. But they do give the pride of ownership feeling. I'm not worried about people seeing the amp rack for fear of gear snob critique.

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AntonZ
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#190 Post by AntonZ » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:00 am

SethRocksYou wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:29 am
Please, do share what the "item" is, that you've had repeated issues with. I'm more than happy to know and avoid known problem items :thumbsup:
I have a DEQ and few AD/DA converters from Behringer. My DEQ has always worked fine. The older ADA8000's are know for issues due to heat from voltage regulators and capacitors in the power supply section that were hardly up to the job without the added heat to begin with. One of mine kept working fine. I had to do some modifications on another. I have since replaced them with the newer ADA8200 which have been trouble free for me. They don't get to see much use these days though.

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#191 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:14 am

SethRocksYou wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:21 am
You can hear it every time Bruce talks about his. He always leads off with this great excuse of why he has one and excuses it as being okay because it's "only" for the monitors. He hates owning that thing. Not because it's bad, but because he believes everyone else thinks so. There's nothing wrong with that. He's right.
You have misinterpreted my statements. I have a Behringer amp running my monitors because I needed a cheap 4 channel amp that took up 2U of space. The "only" for monitors part is that I know the limitations of the wattage ratings and that what it will actually put out is enough for my needs.

The X32 is a good product. I've mixed countless shows on that desk. I still prefer Presonus, but it's not a quality issue, just one of the layout and the iPad interface. The mixers prior to the X32 (i.e. Eurodesk) were absolute crap....period. Built from cheap components, they failed often. Dropping a channel here and Aux output there.....I doubt you could find one more than 2-3 years old that didn't have a problem.

Their amps have been fairly solid over the years, but while the design was good (my understanding is that they pretty much copied the QSC amps back in the day) they would still use less than stellar components and that hurt them some.....but, for the most part they held up ok.

No question that there is a stigma with the name.....just like years ago when people would turn their noses up at Peavey. The only difference is that the Berry deserved it due to faulty products while the 30 year old Peavey powered mixers are still being used every day.

Would I be worried about the current crop of Behringer mixers and amps? Not really, they have made great strides to overcome their past. My complaint now, as it has been, is that they lie about their power ratings which makes it hard for people to determine which of their amps they should get.

So, until they fix that - I will continue to suggest that BFMers should be very careful when choosing one of their amps for Sub use.....for tops, it's not as big a deal as BFM cabs need so very little in the way of power to blow your head off.

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Bryan Cox
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#192 Post by Bryan Cox » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:34 am

Grant Bunter wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:42 am
Bryan Cox wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:13 am
Never knew the plethora of information until I came here.
Mmmm good isn't it :)
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Bryan Cox
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#193 Post by Bryan Cox » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:07 am

SethRocksYou wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:29 am
Please, do share what the "item" is, that you've had repeated issues with. I'm more than happy to know and avoid known problem items :thumbsup:
I know this was meant for Bruce but what the hell. I've used several pieces of their gear without issue. X32, NX3000D, DI boxes, RTA mic, crossovers, eqs, tube vocal pre...

But I would caveat that with: I see Behringer the same way I see Harbor Freight. I stay completely away from things with known problems but there are some items with solid performance. Or if I need something for a one-time use, will be rarely used, or if I could get by w/o it completely...I'll give it a shot.

And I'm very careful with my Behringer gear. It's not as robust as other brands. I do not dare use it outside its limits in the manual. But I can abuse the other gear and it'll take it all day long. I just remain very aware of the limits.
SethRocksYou wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:29 am
If you're not familiar with Ashly (I wasn't until recently)...
My first PA system was riddled with a mix of 80s/90s Ashly and Crown Power Base amps. Also had some Ashly eqs and Symetrix compressors. They were all solid pieces, albeit heavy as hell. I used that same set up from 2004 to 2013. And my former band mate had purchased it all new ~20 years before that.
SethRocksYou wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:29 am
I don't know if they're rider friendly. But they do give the pride of ownership feeling. I'm not worried about people seeing the amp rack for fear of gear snob critique.
Never had issues with semi-pro bands. But I'm sure if Foghat rolled into town they'd have very specific requests. The ones I ran sound for were small time...the ones who'd just put out an album in Nashville and started touring to make a name. They'd show up, demand beer, food, and ladies, then take a look at the gear and say, "I guess it'll work." They had no freaking clue what they were looking at and they no longer cared after sound check.
Otop 12 x 4 (Delta Pro 12-450a) 2x melded, 2x straight
Titan 39 x 4 (3012LF) 20" wide

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#194 Post by ketoet » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:37 pm

I've had several behringer amps, 2 dcx's, 2 3way crossovers and some of their powered speakers. I've never experienced issues with them and i rent my stuff out so you can bet it has been abused. Ironiccly the one amp i've had the most trouble with is a crown xti2000, altough it was second hand.
So i'm a happy behringer buyer 😅.
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#195 Post by Tom Smit » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:49 pm

Grant Bunter wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:53 am

My main issue with the amps is, the NU6000, as an example, never can nor will be a 6000W amp...
How true. I just looked at my manual again, and, for the NU6000, the RMS output is 1100w/channel at 8 ohm , and 2100w/channel at 4 ohm. In the "bridge" column there is a dash, both for 4 and 8 ohm, meaning.....do not bridge. The NU3000 and NU1000 both allow bridging.
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