Titan 39 Build

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#166 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:30 pm

Grant Bunter wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:48 pm
Lots of people simply don't know this stuff
Most don't. If they did you'd never see mains stacked above subs in advertising for PA gear, but unfortunately that's how they're usually shown.

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#167 Post by SethRocksYou » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:00 pm

A couple years back we hired a "professional" sound company to do our sound and I had to pull the "I'm a paying customer, therefore I'm the boss" card to get them to cluster the subs together and put the tops on separate stands.

A year or so later they were doing sound for a "music in the park" kind of deal. Sound was okay. Not too too bad. HUGE noticeable power alley though. It's kind of like comb filtering, in that, if I stand still my ears become accustomed to the sound, but moving across the listening area revealed very noticeable inconsistencies. Bass was huge fat and meaty up the middle. Lacking and borderline insufficient outside of the power alley. It fell off quick to the sides. My guess is, it's probably tied into the way "cardioid" subwoofer placement works.

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Bryan Cox
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#168 Post by Bryan Cox » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:38 am

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:30 pm
Grant Bunter wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:48 pm
Lots of people simply don't know this stuff
Most don't. If they did you'd never see mains stacked above subs in advertising for PA gear, but unfortunately that's how they're usually shown.
Bill, this is a little ironic. From the Sub Placement sticky I made it to the Peavey article for boundary cancellation. They talk in there about clustering subs in the middle of the dance floor then go on to explain the math. And on the same site are showcasing their systems at NAMM, set up in the same way that apparently shredded their cones in the past.

https://www.peavey.com/products/index.c ... 65/118813/

Not sure what the motivation is since they know better. But they are supporting the method they admit doesn't work.
Otop 12 x 4 (Delta Pro 12-450a) 2x melded, 2x straight
Titan 39 x 4 (3012LF) 20" wide

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#169 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:45 am

This is what happens when the only thing shared between the engineering department and the marketing department is the parking lot. Even if the marketeers know that it's wrong they'll still do it that way, because they're not in the business of educating their customers in the right way to set up PA. They're in the business of giving uninformed buyers what they want.

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#170 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:32 am

I try to follow the sub placement rules when I can, but sometimes you have to weigh the power alleys against all of the other factors. Two years ago, I did an outdoor event and put the subs in front of the stage, but with the windy conditions, we had to lash the speaker tripods to the tent poles over the stage... sounded great, but was concerned.

Last year, same place - we went with our normal "big show" outdoor setup even though we couldn't get it very far apart. Yeah, there were power alleys, but the crowd was all on their feet milling around so it really wasn't that noticeable and I felt a lot better about the setup this way.

Life is a trade-off sometimes.....
2019 St. Patty's Day at Pour Haus.jpg

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#171 Post by SethRocksYou » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:56 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:32 am
Life is a trade-off sometimes.....

Image
Looks like a single stack may have been an option too. Envisioning a four stack of O-tops on 6 V-plated Titans get's me giggling a little inside.

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#172 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:35 pm

SethRocksYou wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:56 am

Looks like a single stack may have been an option too. Envisioning a four stack of O-tops on 6 V-plated Titans get's me giggling a little inside.
Unfortunately, I can't stack OTops on my v-plate......I've done a mono stack before indoors with a single T39 and two OTops.

Oh, and I need a pretty tall ladder to get the last OTops up there!

That stack you see is right at 8 feet to the top.....

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#173 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:37 pm

You'll also notice that both stacks are angled toward where I'm taking the pic at FOH. Time issues? Probably, but I went for better coverage of where the people were going to be as opposed to the stage orientation - which was off by quite a bit.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Bryan Cox
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#174 Post by Bryan Cox » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:05 pm

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:32 am
I try to follow the sub placement rules when I can, but sometimes you have to weigh the power alleys against all of the other factors. Two years ago, I did an outdoor event and put the subs in front of the stage, but with the windy conditions, we had to lash the speaker tripods to the tent poles over the stage... sounded great, but was concerned.

Last year, same place - we went with our normal "big show" outdoor setup even though we couldn't get it very far apart. Yeah, there were power alleys, but the crowd was all on their feet milling around so it really wasn't that noticeable and I felt a lot better about the setup this way.

Life is a trade-off sometimes.....

2019 St. Patty's Day at Pour Haus.jpg
Nice setup, Bruce. And it makes sense what you're saying. I'd love to have my cake and eat it, too. But I guess that isn't always the case.
Otop 12 x 4 (Delta Pro 12-450a) 2x melded, 2x straight
Titan 39 x 4 (3012LF) 20" wide

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#175 Post by Bryan Cox » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:05 pm

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:37 pm
You'll also notice that both stacks are angled toward where I'm taking the pic at FOH. Time issues? Probably, but I went for better coverage of where the people were going to be as opposed to the stage orientation - which was off by quite a bit.
I'm willing to bet the average patron would never notice it.
Otop 12 x 4 (Delta Pro 12-450a) 2x melded, 2x straight
Titan 39 x 4 (3012LF) 20" wide

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Bryan Cox
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#176 Post by Bryan Cox » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:06 pm

SethRocksYou wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:56 am
Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:32 am
Life is a trade-off sometimes.....

Image
Looks like a single stack may have been an option too. Envisioning a four stack of O-tops on 6 V-plated Titans get's me giggling a little inside.
Me too. The cabs just look mean. I love it!
Otop 12 x 4 (Delta Pro 12-450a) 2x melded, 2x straight
Titan 39 x 4 (3012LF) 20" wide

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Bryan Cox
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#177 Post by Bryan Cox » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:07 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:45 am
This is what happens when the only thing shared between the engineering department and the marketing department is the parking lot. Even if the marketeers know that it's wrong they'll still do it that way, because they're not in the business of educating their customers in the right way to set up PA. They're in the business of giving uninformed buyers what they want.
I didn't think of it that way. But it makes sense when you consider that the companies' goals are to make money.
Otop 12 x 4 (Delta Pro 12-450a) 2x melded, 2x straight
Titan 39 x 4 (3012LF) 20" wide

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Re: Titan 39 Build

#178 Post by SethRocksYou » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:09 pm

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:37 pm
You'll also notice that both stacks are angled toward where I'm taking the pic at FOH. Time issues? Probably, but I went for better coverage of where the people were going to be as opposed to the stage orientation - which was off by quite a bit.
Yeah, I noticed that. I think that's what had me thinking about a single stack on the left to get the coverage, limit cancellations, power alley, and other timing issues, and also open a clear(er) line of sight to the stage area. I wasn't there and I have nowhere near your experience. I'm sure you made the right call given the available conditions and circumstances.

I guess, in the end, every gig is it's own unique situation and it's your/my/whoever's call on what the appropriate balance of trade-off's and compromises are to achieve the primary objective. Apparently, sound quality isn't always at the top of the priorities list. Sometimes it's even at the bottom of the list. Guess we just do what we gotta do. Put forth reasonable effort to get it as right as possible, throw a hand in the air, and ride it out. Right? :cowboy: Yee Haw!

Ideal and perfect are two different things altogether and rarely occur at the same time.

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Charles Jenkinson
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#179 Post by Charles Jenkinson » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 am

Bryan Cox wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:07 pm
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:45 am
This is what happens when the only thing shared between the engineering department and the marketing department is the parking lot. Even if the marketeers know that it's wrong they'll still do it that way, because they're not in the business of educating their customers in the right way to set up PA. They're in the business of giving uninformed buyers what they want.
I didn't think of it that way. But it makes sense when you consider that the companies' goals are to make money.
People make excuses for win-lose, but in the end it's bad form. Regrettably, one has to be an informed buyer - that takes time and effort.
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Re: Titan 39 Build

#180 Post by Bryan Cox » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:13 am

Charles Jenkinson wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 am

Regrettably, one has to be an informed buyer - that takes time and effort.
You can say that again. Never knew the plethora of information until I came here.
Otop 12 x 4 (Delta Pro 12-450a) 2x melded, 2x straight
Titan 39 x 4 (3012LF) 20" wide

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