Jack12 or OmniTop12

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deroy
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Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:52 pm

Jack12 or OmniTop12

#1 Post by deroy »

Hi!

I need something for my Midbass section.
setup:
Iows: 4x18inch Achenbach BR
high: JBL2360 with BMS4590

It would be best to cut the sub at around 80-100hz, the 2360 can run down until 600-900hz.
So I need to address 80-900hz.
Wanted to build 4x Jack 12 (or 2x212) with Kappalite 3015 and was wondering if this cab will give me the enough punch in the low mids.
System will be used predominantly for djs, 70,80s plus house, disco, electronic music.
I read the thread by Gbone where the OmniTop 12 was recommended in quite a similar scenario - but was still wondering wich box gives me more punch and sounds nicer?
If I do the OmniTops - should I go for line arrow right away? Or is there a 212 version?

Thanks!

jemo1234567890
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Location: Germany

Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#2 Post by jemo1234567890 »

Hi Deroy,

the usecase of the Jacks are for bass players without subs, if I'm right.
Maybe someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

So for your midsection I would go with OTops if you prefer the more easy build than the DRs.
If you have a look at the SPL charts the OT15 will go lower. But you have subwoofer so I would say that you don't need them.
I would choose the OT12 and there is a 2x12 version in the plans. But there are seperate plans for the normal version and the J-Array version.

Best regards
Josh

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#3 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Deroy,

Welcome to the forum.

I don't really understand the use of the JBL horn that measures over 30 inches square and about 36 inches deep once you get the driver on it. For that size footprint, you could just build some OT12s with the compression driver option or some DR250s. 4 of either of those would be smaller and sound better than what you are considering.

Unless you just really like the look of that 30 year old horn - I can't fathom a reason to use it. And with it's width, it would look a little strange sitting on top of mid-bass boxes that are only 22-24 inches wide. Unless of course, you were thinking of putting a 2x12 OT or Jack cab on it's side - and that's an awful way to configure cabs. And impossible with OTs or DRs as the horn configuration would be wrong.

Not to mention the cost of those B&C drivers.....wow, they are expensive.

4 OT12s will outrun those subs and two of 'em will take up less room than that JBL horn. The system would be more compact and sound much better.....not to mention - be a lot cheaper to build.

That said - if you really want to go the route of a three way system, then I'd go with the OT12 boxes crossed over at 100hz using the premium drivers.

Can you give us a little more insight into why you want to use that old JBL horn?

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

jemo1234567890
Posts: 43
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Location: Germany

Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#4 Post by jemo1234567890 »

Bruce,

if you ever heard a BMS 4590 on a large horn as the JBL than you would understand :wink:

Do we "need" such huge horns? ... No
Are they good and sound amazing ... absolutly YES :D

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netwerks
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#5 Post by netwerks »

" The line array capable OT15 can be built with a dual compression drivers on a CD horn, with a 10 element vertical tweeter array, or with a 20 element melded tweeter array...giving high frequency dispersion and pattern control that no commercial PA top can match...OTop 15 may also be built with the same HF section as the DR300, for unsurpassed line array performance at the longest throw distances. "

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#6 Post by Bruce Weldy »

jemo1234567890 wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:36 am Bruce,

if you ever heard a BMS 4590 on a large horn as the JBL than you would understand :wink:

Do we "need" such huge horns? ... No
Are they good and sound amazing ... absolutly YES :D
I've mixed on JBL systems small and large.....and I do like 2 inch compression drivers that allow a lower crossover point - but, horns like that are not scalable, they are huge and they don't sound any better than what I can get with a pair of OT12s per side with the horns crossed at 1.2k.

I can build two OT12s that will handle 100hz and up that are smaller in total size than one of those horns. And the cost of building two cabs with horns, drivers, and crossover is less than just the cost two of those B&C drivers.....not to mention the cost of the horn itself.....and the cost of some kind of midbox to cover everything between the horn and the sub.

I started mixing on PA systems in 1978, so I've been through all the big PAs. I'm really more impressed nowadays with how smaller boxes can put out such big sound....and not have to carry around stuff of that size.

But, if that's what the OP wants, more power to him - but it sounds to me like it will end up as a ground-stacked PA circa 1985. If that's the direction, then as I said earlier - an OT212 will fill the bill from 100-900hz with no problem....no reason for 15s. But, it has to be standing upright and not on its side.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#7 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Bruce is right, even though he's a late comer to the mixing business. I started in 1969. :D

The 2360A was a fine piece of kit in its day, and they still have their places today. Those places are called 'museums'.

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Seth
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#8 Post by Seth »

In your intended frequency range, either will work well. However, the Otop12 has a clear advantage, on the order of about 3-4dB in the area you're interested in and 5dB in your mid-high crossover region.

Otop12 FTW :thumbsup:

Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

deroy
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Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:52 pm

Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#9 Post by deroy »

thanks so much for all feedback!

I have to admit - I like the sound of a jbl 2360, especially with the bms driver. And the look is fantastic too.
But you are right, it's not easy to set up, and it always comes with some difficulties to set the sound right.

ok so the otop12 seems to be the best choice. I'll build two each side with one having the horn segment.
will they give me a good accuracy in the high frequencies?
I can still test the jbls above (without the hornflaue of the to12) and let you know what I like better.

one more thing: otop12 will give me enough punch right? and within my setup they would be the better fit than a dr200?

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Seth
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#10 Post by Seth »

deroy wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:27 pm ..will they give me a good accuracy in the high frequencies?
That depends what you consider accurate. There are people who strive to get the flattest response without any EQ. The rest of us use EQ to obtain the desired response.

Here's the melded piezo array, ASD1001 compression driver, and NSD2005 compression driver ( The NSD was recently discontinued, but other similar options exist) in an OTop12.






one more thing: otop12 will give me enough punch right? and within my setup they would be the better fit than a dr200?
Again, that depends on your interpretation of what "enough" is. Enough to hang with 4 bass reflex 18's? My guess is yes, but it really depends on the venue and your expectations. If you're like me... there's never enough of anything good in life. LOL

Here's the mid frequency response of the OTop12, DR200, and DR250
Last edited by Seth on Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#11 Post by Bruce Weldy »

deroy wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:27 pm thanks so much for all feedback!

I have to admit - I like the sound of a jbl 2360, especially with the bms driver. And the look is fantastic too.
But you are right, it's not easy to set up, and it always comes with some difficulties to set the sound right.

ok so the otop12 seems to be the best choice. I'll build two each side with one having the horn segment.
will they give me a good accuracy in the high frequencies?
I can still test the jbls above (without the hornflaue of the to12) and let you know what I like better.

one more thing: otop12 will give me enough punch right? and within my setup they would be the better fit than a dr200?


If you build OTop12s build them all with the horn using the 1.2khz crossover option - that uses a better driver. The balance won't be right if you just put a horn in one. And they sound really good with two stacked together.

I wouldn't use DRs for this unless you commit to using them without the JBL horn. They would not stack well if used as just mid-cabs.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

deroy
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:52 pm

Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#12 Post by deroy »

thanks Seth and Bruce!
@Bruce, so you would build 4 otops with all having the horn flare.
Best choice would be to use the Eminence F151M-8 and build the flare myself, I guess.
Quite hard to get the melted arrays here in Germany. They seem nice too.

I read a couple threads on using other 1'' drivers with horn flares. the eminence is only available in US/GB.
Does it make sense to go down that road and try to fit a BMS 4555 8 1.5" with a readymade flare or the BMS 4538-8 1" on the self built one - or not?
BMS makes pretty legit drivers.

thanks!

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#13 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

deroy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:17 am Quite hard to get the melted arrays here in Germany.
You don't get them, you make them.

You may use any 1" driver that meets the specs, but there is no ready made flare that will work.

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#14 Post by Bruce Weldy »

deroy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:17 am thanks Seth and Bruce!
@Bruce, so you would build 4 otops with all having the horn flare.
Best choice would be to use the Eminence F151M-8 and build the flare myself, I guess.
Quite hard to get the melted arrays here in Germany. They seem nice too.

I read a couple threads on using other 1'' drivers with horn flares. the eminence is only available in US/GB.
Does it make sense to go down that road and try to fit a BMS 4555 8 1.5" with a readymade flare or the BMS 4538-8 1" on the self built one - or not?
BMS makes pretty legit drivers.

thanks!
As the horn in the plans is designed for a 1" driver, stick to that. The BMS 1" looks like it would work from the info I could find. The plans give you options for two different crossover points - do the lower one....1.2khz. As Bill said, build the horn yourself as per the plans.

For the 12" driver - the plans will suggest the Eminence drivers, but the specs are there so you can search for other drivers that will meet them.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Grant Bunter
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Re: Jack12 or OmniTop12

#15 Post by Grant Bunter »

deroy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:17 am the eminence is only available in US/GB.
Hi!
Eminence is stocked at Thoman.de, so should be widely available through Europe...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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