DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

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burnsze15
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DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#1 Post by burnsze15 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:27 am

I was hoping to use the vendor supplied prefab horns as seen in the pictures for the DR300. The plans have a wooden horn assembly, no supplier prefab horns.

Is the wooden horn a better horn? Is it possible to build it using the prefab vendor supplied horns? Im wondering if they are no longer produced.

Thanks for the info.

Grant Bunter
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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#2 Post by Grant Bunter » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:22 am

I think that's an old picture, as not many people build the DR300.
Mostly because it's a concert top, and most of us just aren't that big in the industry.
That horn, at that stage, I think was chopped down from a commercially available product to adapt to Bill's design.

The DR300 plans of mine dated 2011 had already been updated to a custom built wooden HF horn.
Bill updates plans when major improvements are to be got from the latest plans.
So the custom wooden HF horn would exhibit improvements in HF response...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

burnsze15
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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#3 Post by burnsze15 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:11 am

Thank You!! What I expected but wanted to confirm.

While I have you Grant, what is the weight difference between the 280 and 300? Im searching and looking for it and am coming up empty.

Thanks much

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#4 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:28 am

The weight difference is not why you should be using one versus the other. This, from page 1 of the DR300 plans, is: This cabinet is intended for use in arrays of at least three cabinets per side, for high powered live concert sound with audience counts of over 800 seats. If your audience size is smaller, and you don’t have at least a two-man crew, this is probably not the right cab for you

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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#5 Post by Grant Bunter » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:25 pm

Bill brings up a great point. What's the purpose of your build?

The DR300 is deeper wider and higher than the DR280, so it's a no brainer to say it will weigh more.
How much more I can't find either, but that's not really a surprise, as many people who have built DR280's or the fewer who have built DR300's have the crew to handle them, or they are for installs, so they're not worried about weight.

Note the DR300 has an extra brace in the horn path either side as well.

As some form of reference, my CD loaded DR250's weigh 48 pounds. Being roughly 22" cubed, and built with Radiata pine ply, if you used Baltic Birch I'd be thinking at least another 12-20 pounds for a DR300...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

burnsze15
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Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:44 pm

Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#6 Post by burnsze15 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:07 pm

Thank You. I’m awarenof the operational differences and am choosing a box that is a cry once build and buy. You can always scale down if you have too much rig. Scalable is key. Also, yes, my weight question has to do with set up and tear down. So the two man lift is not so much an issue as is the erecting a 100lb per box J-array at 4 per side. Same with the 280.

The 60degree horizontal dispertion will indeed throw further. I am intending on designing a rig that will provide 110db-115db QUALITY clean sound at a jogging pace (ie not working too hard) at 100yards from a J Array scaffold mounted. Close in nearfield or nearfield side fills will be handled by OT12 Melded arrays. The Main FOH rig though needs to be able to provide concert level sound at 100yards.

So honestly I’ve been trying to bring this build together for years now. The business plan as well. Im just focusing on the rig for this discussion.

Heres where I am. It may seem I’m ignorant and green, however I am not. I’m doing a ton of research and asking every question I can before I invest many thousands and hours (days most likely) into a large scale BFM rig.

I’ve actually come down to the 280 or the OT12J. Honestly its becoming more and more apparent that the OT12 Comp will be my choice, however in a large 8/side J Array on a scaffold. Maximizing performance from an OT with driver selection will get me hopefully close to what seems will be a 104db-105/1w/1m average content level above 150hz through 15-18khz +/- 3db. The weight and size will allow stacking and erecting the array without large heavy equipment (fork lifts, etc). A 9foot stack can be achieved and built without alot of trouble. If I need more rig, I add more OT12s. They really are in my opinion the most scalable and most efficient in terms of build, physical weight and size, scalability, and ability to be a 3k person rig. The content will he clean, articulate, and without being pushed. I already plan to build a small army of T48s. That is Phase II.

As far as the business end of the snake as we say, without going into detail, BFM enables a niche market to be entered and a product that is seldomly offered in Live PA. This is a side hustle for me, as my career lies elsewhere.

I’m working with Leland on some build prospects moving forward. I am really leaning toward an OT12 rig. The only other box would be the DR280. The 300 I considered merely on the cry once measurement... Its really not scalable clearly. I only want one box, where the Melded array will work nicely in larger rigs to fill the nearfied and sidefills if the venue calls for it.

This was much more than I intended to share from a weight delta question, however I’m grateful for all the value added feedback I get (other than trolling) to make the best decision I can... ONCE.

I’m curious if any members have erected an 8box per side rig from the OT12Js.

Thanks again for the feedback. Never too much.

Grant Bunter
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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#7 Post by Grant Bunter » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:38 pm

It's all good.
Many of us agonise over the right choice, seemingly forever at times.
There's little trolling here. The advice 99 times out of 100 will be the 2 boxes many think is ideal for their situation is the DR300 and the T60, when neither is.

You understand where you're headed, and your goal. Many don't.

In case you missed it, I'll throw in this:
Trying to eke every last drop of performance out of any cab is ultimately a flawed decision.
The right choice of design may make up for the deficit with a lower driver cost.
Here's an example;
Lets take the Otop12 and the DR250.
The DR250, loaded with recommended drivers, has something like 2-3dB better average response than the Otop 12.
That means it takes nearly 2 x Otop12's to match the average output of 1 x DR250. So it's easy to say, let's upgrade to premium.
Well, that becomes the antithesis of DIY, build as cheaply as possible, for equal to or better than commercial equivalents in terms of performance.

So, perhaps, for scalability, a J array of 8 x DR250 a side is another option. It's a more complex build, so takes longer and costs some more (especially if you're having them built), but do some sums.

Please don't get me wrong. No one I know regrets the choice to build Otop12's.
Where are you?
Is there a forum member nearby that can give you a demo?
That would certainly aid your decision process.

Please also don't take this wrongly, but have you factored in an engineer to design a rigging system to fly an 8 a side array, and someone to build it for that engineer to sign off?
None of Bill's designs are designed such that they can be flown using the structural integrity of the cab as a basis for safety. Bill has stated previously that each cab must be wholly enclosed in a cage to hold the cab in position.
I’m curious if any members have erected an 8box per side rig from the OT12Js.
Search the forum for user Mkulu (IIRC) and check out his threads. He built multi cab J arrays
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

burnsze15
Posts: 41
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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#8 Post by burnsze15 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:00 pm

Thanks Grant. All good info.

As for the J-array, no flying plans. Understood 100% on the engineering. Not even a fleeting thought. My thought is a ground stack using the J array hardware with lateral support (horizontal not vertical) at the top for stabilization. All the weight is stacked.

I will be building with purchased flat packs. This is my best option. Happy medium between scratch build and paying someone to build them. I’ve done a good amout of DIY audio in home, designing and building some custom designs so flat pack assembly is a good fit for time and money.

I’m going to look a little closer at the 250. If it looks like a solid 3db average above a premium loaded OT, at a similar weight and size, and price that doesnt come close to the cost of two additional drivers, then I’ll seriously consider.

The 280 has a nice 90deg dispersion and is a happy medium from close in venues to large field venues. The downside is it’s weight which is why I wanted to truly get a feel for its weight.

I’m going to look at some of those SPL comparison curves of the 250.

I wish I could real world sample both. Not many nearby here in New England other than Yoda himself. I travel for a living so if anyone has some they would be willing to demo please let me know.

Thanks again guys. Yes agreed there are really no Trolls ir bullies around here which is a nice change. So thanks to all.

I’m open to all suggestions and best practices.

burnsze15
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Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:44 pm

Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#9 Post by burnsze15 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:20 pm

I wanted to share these SPL curves. My comparison is the OT12 (premium load) the DR280 and the 250. Look closely at the response from 150~200hz and up of all three. The OT12 is right there with the DRs. That dip at 1.2k may normalize with multiple cabs or can be improved with XO phasing or delay tweaking. From 180hz and up the OT has an average output of 105-108 +/-3db all the way to 18kish (with some attenuation/flattening of the peaks) and still leaves some in the tank with the HF driver, which will most likely normalize with multiple cabs coupled. The 250 is darn close (a little more) and the 280 has alot of HF headroom and maybe a db or db and a half more sensitive overall. My point to this, is if you can use a slow rolloff LP high end of a T48 and a higher xover point (and higher order) of the OT around 115-120hz I’ve seen enough best practices of similar XO designs where it makes for a nice flat transition, or keeps it at least within +/- 3db through the 100-150hz spectrum. The T48 has plenty to give up to 100-120Hz. Id want the 80-100Hz kick drum spectrum mostly in the T48 for maximum impact while the upper end snap is in the Tops.

Point is, I really have alot of faith in the OT. The 280 with a narrower horizontal pattern and deisgn will throw further, which is a plus. So I’m really still between the 280 and OT and leaning toward the OT with multiples and a tall array for the full rig. I still do want to have an estimate of 280 weight though, if skmeone has a ballpark.

Hope this helps folks like me in the future. Or confuses them more like me. haha.
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Tom Smit
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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#10 Post by Tom Smit » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:23 pm



Drivers are not specified in the DR range, nor the tweets. Max output is not shown either.
TomS

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#11 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:30 pm

burnsze15 wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:20 pm
The 280 with a narrower horizontal pattern and deisgn will throw further
Throw isn't a product of the pattern width. SPL drops by 6dB per doubling of distance no matter what the pattern, unless the source is at least three wavelengths high, in which case it drops by 3dB per doubling of distance for a given distance before it reverts to 6dB. The 280 has a narrower pattern because the radiating plane is wider. The advantage to that is it goes lower.

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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#12 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:55 am

More in the soup mix:
All pricing from Leland.
The NSD2005 is no longer available, it's recommended replacement is the F151M-8 @ $70ea.
The ASD1001B is $35ea.
The 2510 is $140ea.
Th 3012HO is $205eac.

Assuming a CD driven HF horn
The Otop12 is 3012HO + F151M-8 = $275
The DR280 is 3012HO + 2 x F151M-8 = $345
The DR250 is 2510 + 2 x ASD1001B = $210

That's just driver cost. Nothing else. Even if you choose the Otop12 over the DR250, that decision x 16 = +$1040.
Tom's chart states unported DR250. Unported, it should crossed at 125Hz or above.
It can be ported, however, quite simply, and the cab tuning becomes 80Hz, which is great for a 100Hz crossover from subs to tops, which many of us utilise.
The benefit in crossing to tops lower diminishes subs localisation.
The cheapest flat packs would be the Otops. Filters, much of a muchness.

For me, that 4dB deficit at 100Hz and the slow rise to 250Hz in the Otop12, that's not so apparent in the DR250, and the fact that the DR250 is described as "The Flagship", made me lean that way.
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Seth
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Re: DR300- Plans have wooden horn, pics have vendor supplied?

#13 Post by Seth » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:39 pm

Personally, I was initially drawn to the OT12J. But, when I learned the DR200 was close, if not a little better in response and sensitivity, I chose to go the DR200 route instead. Some little tid-bits of information I recall reading when I was doing my research is/are, with 4 or more cabs per side the DR200 and DR250 are nearly identical, with the DR250 having slightly more power handling and extension... any of the cabs mentioned in this thread sound better and require less EQ when used in stacks of 2 or more... and, in an opinion based, non-scientific, side-by-side comparison between the DR200 and the DR250, the DR200 was chosen as the better overall sound quality option between the DR200 and DR250.

Inspired by the OT12J and Jack Lite's, to help achieve lower weight cabs, I've chosen to construct my DR200's out of ¼" ply instead of ½" and have found a lightweight neo driver that's just a smidge out of the 10% spec window. They're not assembled yet, so I can't really give a firsthand performance testimonial. But, I expect they'll suite my needs and possibly yours too.

Just thought I'd add it (the DR200) to the options list.




Also, as Grant pointed out, when building a lot of cabs the difference in build costs add up quickly. I'm pretty sure the DR200 is the least expensive cab in the line-up. Even if you're not worried about the cost, an extra grand in hand could be way better utilized in other parts of the system... SMAART perhaps.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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