melded or compression

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relewis
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melded or compression

#1 Post by relewis » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:27 pm

Hi all
I built a pair of DR200 quite a few years ago with melded array and BETA drivers.
Over the last couple of weeks i gave them an overhaul with Delta drivers and ASD compression as per the plans.
Gotta say should have done this from the outset. They weigh a lot more, but its difficult to believe they are the same cabs!
RTA has very little to do, and to be fair they sound non too bad without RTA (beating a pair of EV stage 300). With RTA and a pair of Tuba 24 underneath they are just dreamy - and i now get that kick in the chest when you wind it up a bit (which i never quite acheived to my satisfaction with the other drivers)
Dont get me wrong - ive used these cabs with the melded/beta as my main tops for a good few years, but if anyone is uncertain if its worth the extra weight/expense i would say definately yes!
2off Tuba24
2off DR200

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J_Dunavin
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:13 pm
Location: Appleton WI

Re: melded or compression

#2 Post by J_Dunavin » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:54 am

Good to know!
I also have some older DRs I have been considering to upgrade.
How hard was it to modify for the horn?
I guess the melded and comp horn have the same footprint, initially.
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

djtrumptight
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: Detroit,Michigan

Re: melded or compression

#3 Post by djtrumptight » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:09 pm

From my experience the melded array has worked well for me and has gained me business.I have been hired to replace another sound guy because he uses dual 15's for tops with a compression horn in them stacked on top of 2 double 18 subs,he attempts to cover a long hall with short ceilings which means there is a 20 foot path in front of his speakers because no one can stand in that area and dance because he is forcing his tops to play through the dancefloor to reach the back of the venue and those compression horns are harsh up close whereas i use my melded array on the bottom of my stack for those up close and my flat array reaches the back with no problem and my subs are v plated in a corner so as the advertisement says,there's not a bad seat in the house.
Built:
2 Autotuba's MCM 55 2421
8 T48's 24"wide 3015 LF
2 DR 250's melded Deltalite II 2510
2 DR 250's flat Deltalite II 2510
2 SLA HT systems
1 Table Tuba Dayton DCS 255-4
2 T 39's 20" wide 3012 LF
1 T-18 13" wide MCM 55 2421
2 SLA Pro's

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6671
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: melded or compression

#4 Post by Bruce Weldy » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:47 pm

djtrumptight wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:09 pm
another sound guy because he uses dual 15's for tops with a compression horn in them stacked on top of 2 double 18 subs, and those compression horns are harsh up close
And I'll bet that if you research the tops he's using, the horns are crappy and crossed over at 3k and can't handle the load. I've had to mix on boxes like that and they stink.

However, I have both melded and CD horns. The CD horns are very smooth and sound great crossed at 1.2khz (NSD2005). I can't speak to the ASD1001 that are crossed at 2khz, but I imagine that they sound pretty good.

I just think that the CD sounds better in the vocal range in my OT12s. I like the additional dispersion of the melded, but if I build more, they will definitely be more of the NSD2005.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Tom Smit
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Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: melded or compression

#5 Post by Tom Smit » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:32 am

Bruce, would you still use/keep the melded, or would they be replaced?
TomS

Bruce Weldy
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: melded or compression

#6 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:17 am

Tom Smit wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:32 am
Bruce, would you still use/keep the melded, or would they be replaced?
I've pondered that very thing. Pretty much came to the conclusion that if I lost some piezos in an array, I'd replace the whole array with a CD. And build new crossovers, of course.

Last month at a recurring show, I was having to sit in on stage and play, so my helper was mixing. He thought he heard something breaking up in the OT12s, so we marked those two on that side.

I pulled 'em out and put 'em through their paces side by side, checking 'em out. The CD box really just seems to pop a little more than the array. Cleaner, smoother vocals and more volume.

I don't do many venues where the extra horizontal dispersion is that important to me like I did when I first built 'em.

Another caveat is that I'm running live sound and focus greatly on vocals.......I don't think the difference between the CD and melded array would make as much difference to me with recorded music.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

relewis
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 4:13 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK
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Re: melded or compression

#7 Post by relewis » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:55 pm

I have old plans, so not sure if the newer plans are an easier build, but I found the cd horns a fairly tough build - theres a lot of angles. Also on the plans I had the cd enclosure is open at top and bottom so not airtight. I got around this (and beefed up the unit) by emptying a can of expanding foam into the cd assembly after I had completed it, trimming as necessary to make space between the drivers to mount the crossover. The completed array looks really cool, and the dowel makes a good handle!
The horizontal dispersion of the CD is not as wide as the melded, however the crossover frequency is higher, so the 1.6khz area which was dominated by the melded array before is now server by the delta pro, and so the dispersion in the vocal range is dicatated by the overall cab not the CD and sounds a lot smoother. I work with a lot of folk artists and so the clarity of the vocal is paramount.
I'm considering making the melded array into a standalone unit which could be flown in the centre, but this will be when I have more time

I'm doing sound for Megson on Saturday night, and this will be the first real test before a discerning audience. Their tech spec calls for LF down to 38Hz. May struggle with a pair of Tuba24 but we'll see!
2off Tuba24
2off DR200

djtrumptight
Posts: 783
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: Detroit,Michigan

Re: melded or compression

#8 Post by djtrumptight » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:42 pm

I think the difference is,I was speaking on using my system with recorded music indoors,you guys seem to be talking about doing live music outdoors where the audience isnt as close to the speakers,my set of melded array DR250's on the bottom of the stack are ideal for those scenarios.I like vocal presence too,and boost the 3K area to get the desired effect,works for me.
Built:
2 Autotuba's MCM 55 2421
8 T48's 24"wide 3015 LF
2 DR 250's melded Deltalite II 2510
2 DR 250's flat Deltalite II 2510
2 SLA HT systems
1 Table Tuba Dayton DCS 255-4
2 T 39's 20" wide 3012 LF
1 T-18 13" wide MCM 55 2421
2 SLA Pro's

tvent
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Helena, AR

Re: melded or compression

#9 Post by tvent » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:21 pm

You guys that are mixing CD's and Melded arrays in your stack - do you power them with separate amp channels in order to be able to EQ them separately?
How are your RTA'ing that and are you still able to run any "AutoEQ" in that scenario?
Thanks,
Tim
Built:
4 x WH10 melded
4 x WH8 melded
2 x Jack15 melded
2 x Simplex 12 w/BGH-25 for Bass
1 x Simplex Tiltback (powered PPA800DSP) for Keys
2 x SLA Pro
Bought:
6 x T39 20" 3012LF loaded

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6671
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: melded or compression

#10 Post by Bruce Weldy » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:03 pm

tvent wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:21 pm
You guys that are mixing CD's and Melded arrays in your stack - do you power them with separate amp channels in order to be able to EQ them separately?
How are your RTA'ing that and are you still able to run any "AutoEQ" in that scenario?
Thanks,
Tim
One channel and EQ them all at the same time. You are EQing the sum of the two cabs. As long as there is one of each on both sides - there's no need for separate EQ..... The RTA hears just what your ears hear, so there's no issue.

They sound just fine stacked up.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

tvent
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Helena, AR

Re: melded or compression

#11 Post by tvent » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:07 am

Thanks for that Bruce.
That's good to know.
I like the idea of mixing the two but didn't want to add any more amp channels and complexity if I could help it.

Next question... (might warrant a new thread, but here goes)
You seem to be a big fan of those NSD2005's.
I have some half-way started DR250's that were started on very old plans.
I'm wanting to complete them, but they were started with Melded arrays in mind.
I'm sure I could modify it at this point to accommodate the CD's although in these particular plans there was no CD option. I might could extrapolate enough from current plans to make it happen.
That being said:
I've also read somewhere in here that the NSD2005's wont fit in a DR250.
This is confusing me if the ASD1001 fits because they are actually deeper than the NSD2005 by almost 3/4" (NSD seems to be about 3/8" larger in diameter though - but that's only 3/16" larger in all directions, right?)
Anyone know for certain?
Built:
4 x WH10 melded
4 x WH8 melded
2 x Jack15 melded
2 x Simplex 12 w/BGH-25 for Bass
1 x Simplex Tiltback (powered PPA800DSP) for Keys
2 x SLA Pro
Bought:
6 x T39 20" 3012LF loaded

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6671
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: melded or compression

#12 Post by Bruce Weldy » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:25 am

There is no option for the NSD2005 in the plans for the DR250. I don't know if they would fit or not, but the NSD is a little wider than the ASD. You would also have to build a different crossover for the lower Crossover point.

Don't know if I'd try to do that without Bill chiming in.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

tvent
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Helena, AR

Re: melded or compression

#13 Post by tvent » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:40 am

Thanks Bruce. Maybe Bill will see this and chime in.
I'm fine with the crossover changes. When you run them at 1.2k, what slope are you using? 18db or all the way up to 24dB/Octave.
Built:
4 x WH10 melded
4 x WH8 melded
2 x Jack15 melded
2 x Simplex 12 w/BGH-25 for Bass
1 x Simplex Tiltback (powered PPA800DSP) for Keys
2 x SLA Pro
Bought:
6 x T39 20" 3012LF loaded

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6671
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: melded or compression

#14 Post by Bruce Weldy » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:19 am

tvent wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:40 am
Thanks Bruce. Maybe Bill will see this and chime in.
I'm fine with the crossover changes. When you run them at 1.2k, what slope are you using? 18db or all the way up to 24dB/Octave.
I use Bill's passive crossover, but if I was to bi-amp, I'd run 'em with as steep a slope as possible to protect 'em at 1.2k

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1577
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: melded or compression

#15 Post by CoronaOperator » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:29 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:25 am
There is no option for the NSD2005 in the plans for the DR250. I don't know if they would fit or not, but the NSD is a little wider than the ASD. You would also have to build a different crossover for the lower Crossover point.
I don't think the physical length of the hf horn is long enough to support a lower x-over point on the DR250. FYI there is nothing wrong with the asd1001 in the dr250, a little eq and they sound fantastic. I have yet to hear a better sounding commercial cab.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

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