Another New Guy Seeking Your Help

[djohnson573]

Greetings! This is my first post on this forum so I wanted to say hello. I have been lurking for a while and have read numerous posts here as well as the entire Bill Fitz Designs thread (it took about 3 weeks lol) on the djforums. While I am currently a businessman, I was a professional musician in my youth and my first guitar amp was a Heathkit (that should take some of you back a ways). Recently I have become interested in sound again and have a couple of easy DJ gigs under my belt.

I am very excited by the prospect of building a few of Bill’s speaker designs. Despite all the reading I have done, I still can’t decide what combination would best suit my needs, and that is where I need your help. So, I will list my criteria and hopefully someone here will lead me in the right direction.

1. I will be playing prerecorded music, and I want it to sound great.
2. I need light weight gear. I’m no spring chicken, so lugging 100 lb cabinets is no longer in the cards. I also don’t have loads of storage space, so I would like it all to fit in a 4 x 5 cargo trailer.
3. I want a scalable system that can be configured for small venues and grow up to the average gym sized middle school dance (300 or so?).
4. I would like to be able to run the required electronics on a single 20 amp circuit with plenty of room for lights. I’ve seen several venues where one commercial outlet is all you get.

So, does this animal exist? Base on the weight restrictions, I’ve kind of narrowed down the components to Tuba 24/30, DR 200/250, and/or Omni or Omni Top 10/12/15. I’m just not sure what combination of boxes/drivers would best suit my needs. I’m currently operating with a pair of Mackie SRM450v2s, so I’ll starts with the subwoofers and add tops if they will increase performance. Also, I have a fair amount of woodwork experience (furniture building) under my belt, so I’m not intimidated by degree of difficulty.

Sorry for the long post. I appreciate any and all comments. You folks are the experts, so I’m counting on you to help me spend my hard earned dollars wisely. Thanks in advance for your help!

[Tim A]

You're going to get as many opinions as you do posts, so I may as well start:

It sounds like you have plenty of pack space. Any of these systems will work on a couple of amps, so no worres there.

Sub-wise, I'd go with T-30's or T-39's. Even though the Titans are typically recommended for live bands, you're going to hear from people who are using T-39's for DJing with tremendous success. T-24's are great little subs, "little" being the key word. Small box = less bass no matter how you cut it. They were designed for people with a limited pack space, so if you go Tuba go with the 30. From the sound of it, you don't need T-48's, and you certainly don't need T-36's.

For tops, Bill's rule of thumb is "If you can build DR's, do so. If not, build OmniTops." It sounds like you can, so easy enough.

Ok, light, small, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. You have DR250's or DR200's. Either are great cabs, either are louder-n-hell. The 250 is slightly louder and has more bass, The 200 is smaller and lighter. If you run with subs all the time, forget about needing the added bass of the 250. The 200 will cover up to 300 with 4 cabs, the 250 will handle up to 400. If you want the added safety net, go with the 250. Or, maybe you'd prefer to stick with 4 of the smaller cab and have an extra pair for the few times you need it? Even though they sound pretty close in size, there's a substantial difference.

DR200 on the left, 250 on the right:

[djohnson573]

Hey Tim,

Thanks for the quick reply. Yeah, I forgot about the T39s. In the thinner versions, they would meet my weight criteria. I don’t know about plenty of pack space, though as I still have to save room for the truss and lights. I figure I could handle 4 – T24s or 2 – T30/39 slims (24 wide max).

The DRs are sounding like a done deal, so I’ll drop the Omnis from the race. I really like the size of the DR200s (especially seeing them side-by-side with the DR250s). So the question of the perfect scalable system becomes one of balance. Going with 4 – DR200s to cover 300, will any of the above subwoofer configurations provide a balanced sound?

BTW, fantastic looking finishes on both those cabinets!

[Tim A]

4-20" wide T-39's loaded with BP102's would do it. So would comparably sized T-30's.

Any of them will keep up. I've run 4-200's with 3 T-39s V plated outdoors, and it was ok. Not perfect, but it got by. I would rather have had at least 1 more. This was a mishmash of 2-14" T-39's and 1-22" T-39. (You can mix different widths of the same design, but not different designs).

If you go with the slimmer build options plan a 1:1 ratio to match the 200's. If you go wider and use double drivers in the cab you can go less. If want heavier bass, figure 2:1 of the slims or 1:1 for dual drivers. Any of those will get you close.

Also, Eminence is set to release the new 3012LF driver at winter NAMM. It will be the bees knees, cat's pajamas, mac daddy for the T-39. I haven't heard anything about using it in a T-30 yet, maybe it was discussed and I missed it. In a T-39, a pair may be all you need for 'normal' bass with 200's.

Here's another thing I like about the 200:



Easy for 1 guy to do.

DISCLAIMER:

I am a HUGE proponent of the DR200, so keep it in perspective. Wait until a few more guys weigh in before you decide. For me, the 200 is the best thing going, but bear in mind none of these cabs suck. Any of them will give you better performance that you can buy commercially without taking out a second mortgage.

[djohnson573]

Thanks Tim! This is good info. I'm starting to get a feel for what it is going to take.

The bees knees, huh? I won't be able to start this project until around the end of January anyway, so maybe I will hold out until someone gets their mitts on one of those 3012LFs (opps, I mean a pair )

I'm all over that one man stacking BTW.

[AntonZ]

I own a DR250 and have seen (and lifted) DR200's. If you need to move it all by yourself, big +1 for the DR200. Just like Tim said, there is more size difference than the numbers suggest. On the other hand, DR250's can be used standalone for modest levels, DR200's are no good without subs. So if you go DR200's, you are going to need subs at all times.

[djohnson573]

Hello Anton,

I had no idea that there was that big of a size difference until Tim posted that side-by-side picture (worth a thousand words). My back tells me to take four small speakers over two large speakers any day.

[AntonZ]

I hear you. As long as you don't forget to bring your subs, you'll be one happy camper (and a loud one )

[djohnson573]

A few questions for Tim (or anyone else that would like to answer).

1. No one else has weighed in with their thoughts on my system design questions so either (a) there are not many people following this forum or (b) you hit the nail on the head and left everyone else speechless. Should I just go ahead and order the plans for the DR200 and T39 and be done with it? Leaning towards 2 or 4 of the 14” T39s since I saw the picture of your daughter carrying it. Gave me the idea that if I build it light enough, my daughter could load the stuff for me.

2. Everyone has talked about what an awesome driver the HL-10C and how sad they are that it has been discontinued. In fact, they have been talking about this for 9 months and it is still widely available and listed on the Eminence web site. Is this driver still recommended for the T24/30/39? If so, would it pay to buy a spare? I have never blown a speaker in my life as I tend to over do it on gear and then let it run on idle.

3. Are you the same Tim A that called me a moron on the “other forum”?

[LelandCrooks]

We're all speechless.

Tim pretty much nailed it.

The HL10c is a monster driver. You can pound the hell out of them, no sweat. I wouldn't be afraid to use them, but I would buy a spare. But with a modicum of restraint, I don't think you'd ever blow one.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

Should I just go ahead and order the plans for the DR200 and T39 and be done with it?

Yes, you should order the DR200 and T39 plans and be done with it. I have built eight of each (with two more of each on the way). My T39@14 weight 46-48lb per box. With a strap handle on the back, they are an easy one hand carry.

2. Everyone has talked about what an awesome driver the HL-10C and how sad they are that it has been discontinued.

The HL10c is an unholy beast of a driver - and it weights in at 18 pounds!!! In terms of a$$ kicking per pound it is second only to the 3015LF. But, the HL10c will add a good 10 pounds to a T39. 60 pounds is getting to the limit of my one handed carry. Because it has been discontinued, the HL10c is no longer the recommended driver.

The BP102 doesn't look like much, but that woofer really can pound in the T39. Seriously, I put one T39S in a 800sqft practice space and barely got 25w into the box before someone's head literally exploded!!

--Stan Graves

[Tim A]

Are you the same Tim A that called me a moron on the “other forum”?

That's me! But hey, you asked for it!

I have to admit, I myself am totally speechless at the lack of disagreement with my recommendations. Seems like you just can't get a good argument these days.

Sounds like an old Monty Python skit...

[jcmbowman]

Greetings! This is my first post on this forum so I wanted to say hello. I have been lurking for a while and have read numerous posts here as well as the entire Bill Fitz Designs thread (it took about 3 weeks lol) on the djforums. While I am currently a businessman, I was a professional musician in my youth and my first guitar amp was a Heathkit (that should take some of you back a ways). Recently I have become interested in sound again and have a couple of easy DJ gigs under my belt.

I am very excited by the prospect of building a few of Bill’s speaker designs. Despite all the reading I have done, I still can’t decide what combination would best suit my needs, and that is where I need your help. So, I will list my criteria and hopefully someone here will lead me in the right direction.

1. I will be playing prerecorded music, and I want it to sound great.
2. I need light weight gear. I’m no spring chicken, so lugging 100 lb cabinets is no longer in the cards. I also don’t have loads of storage space, so I would like it all to fit in a 4 x 5 cargo trailer.
3. I want a scalable system that can be configured for small venues and grow up to the average gym sized middle school dance (300 or so?).
4. I would like to be able to run the required electronics on a single 20 amp circuit with plenty of room for lights. I’ve seen several venues where one commercial outlet is all you get.

So, does this animal exist? Base on the weight restrictions, I’ve kind of narrowed down the components to Tuba 24/30, DR 200/250, and/or Omni or Omni Top 10/12/15. I’m just not sure what combination of boxes/drivers would best suit my needs. I’m currently operating with a pair of Mackie SRM450v2s, so I’ll starts with the subwoofers and add tops if they will increase performance. Also, I have a fair amount of woodwork experience (furniture building) under my belt, so I’m not intimidated by degree of difficulty.

Sorry for the long post. I appreciate any and all comments. You folks are the experts, so I’m counting on you to help me spend my hard earned dollars wisely. Thanks in advance for your help!

welcome to the forum!

I'm in agreement with tim - go with the DR200 if weight/storage is a concern. Otherwise, I'm a fan of the 250's ability to work in smaller venues without a sub. If you do go the 200 route, you may want to consider building a Tuba18 or an Autotuba for those really small gigs - you could fit one of those, your amps, a pair of DR200s and whatever lights and other gear you need for a decent house/backyard party in the back of your car.

As far as the power requirements go - you'll want to aim for the newer digital amplifiers, like the QSC Powerlights or Crown XTi or I-Techs - they have considerable output for a minimal amount of power draw. If you're still using incandescent lighting you'll want to look into the LED lights that are just now approaching the affordable stage for DJ use - they use 1/10 the power of traditional lights, and have ridiculous life expectancies (think 10,000-50,000 operating hours) so you never have to replace the bulbs.

Lastly - buy a nice beefy 100' or 150' extension cord. I've done plenty of gigs where I was told that we only had access to one 20 amp circuit, only to pull out the big mama extension cord and say 'so where do I need to plug this in to be on a different circuit,' and have them show me the way. Oh yeah, get some gaffe tape to go with that cord.


this is all just my $.02, however - do with it what you will.

[Tim A]

If you do go the 200 route, you may want to consider building a Tuba18 or an Autotuba for those really small gigs - you could fit one of those, your amps, a pair of DR200s and whatever lights and other gear you need for a decent house/backyard party in the back of your car.

Disagree...politely!

For a small venue single box sub, look at the 'new' Omni12 loaded with 2 BP102's. There's a thread in the reviews section.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

I'm in agreement with tim - go with the DR200 if weight/storage is a concern. Otherwise, I'm a fan of the 250's ability to work in smaller venues without a sub.

A new DR200 with the new porting is Darn Close(tm) to the low end extension of the older DR250 design. Both the DR200 & DR250 benefit from a 2:1 sub:top ratio to get a flat response below 100Hz. Adding a second T39 will get you a +6dB bump on the low end. See this for why I think a 2:1 ratio is the way to go:



--Stan Graves