The Puzzle!

[Dave Non-Zero]

Speaking of Colonial doors....



wheels didnt help here i must admit.....

[Tim A]

I gotta weigh in here.

I'm typically a 'smaller is better' guy. That is to say, I prefer several small cabs to a few larger ones. However, I don't deal with audiences of 2,000.

You need to plan for your largest audience, period. The system can be cut down for smaller audiences.

If it were me, I'd start with the T-48. I'd build a pair as narrow as possible for the small gigs. Then I'd build some wider ones for the big gigs. Remember, you cannot mix designs, but you can mix different widths of the same design. The wider ones would be double the narrow ones in both size and driver compliment, so that the pair of narrow ones equalled the response of a single wide one. The end result would be a pair of narrow subs and an odd number of wider ones so you'd have an equal stack for the big gigs.

2 narrow = small gig
2 narrow 1 wide or 2 wide = medium gig
2 narrow and 3 wide = bigger gig
etc. etc.

Now for tops. I love the 200. I think it's one of thre greatest cabs ever designed. But, it's not the best choice for large gigs. It takes way too many to get the SPL you need. And I'm not totally convinced there's that much of a difference between the 200 and 250. 25w and 1dB isn't all that much. Again, you need to plan for your biggest audience. Go with the 280. How many to start with is up to you, but I'd think 4 as a mimimum and then add on as needed.

The one caveat here is that if somewhere along the line you decide the 280 is too much for your small gigs, a single pair of 200's or 250's wouldn't be that big of a deal. I mean, you're already storing enough cabs to choke an elephant, so what's two more? Also, If you ever got into a situation where you needed to fill in out to the sides due to a wider audience, you could probably use the odd cabs pointing out at 90 degrees as side-fills.

Please remember my advice is free, not even worth 2 cents!

[Sydney]

I gotta weigh in here...But, it's not the best choice for large gigs. It takes way too many to get the SPL you need...Please remember my advice is free, not even worth 2 cents!

Glad you did: and you are being humble... Real experience puts the "theoretical rubber on the road".
IMO: Your stand arrangement represents the practical limit for a 1 person rig.

The DR290 setup of "Nimrod" ( mentioned above ) is not something for 1 person to handle safely.
BTW: I queried him because I know a Community Park that may be looking for a system to set for late spring to early fall season.
His setup was for an audience of 1800 in a neutral outdoor setting, playing classical/ensemble/folk stuff. His estimated the system would have to adjusted for louder music ( rock ) from 4 290's to 6 - 8 290's and from 2 - 4 subs. And he downsized the audience to 1000!
Using Leland equivalence that would require 8 - 12 DR250 or 12 - 16 DR200! ( a 1 person operation - hmmm )

So how are you going to raise that many cabs?
I think the stands system used by Tim A and David Perry will allow 3 DR280/DR290 to be used per stand ( 210 - 250lbs of hung weight ).
( Is that still a 1 man job? )

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

So how are you going to raise that many cabs?

( Is that still a 1 man job? )

It isn't, not unless that 2,000 seat gig is a bluegrass festival. If it's a 1 man system the sub size doesn't matter, as those never leave the ground. But as for the tops what matters is how you'll get them in place. Weight is your enemy, DR200 is your friend. You may need to use half again as many DR200 as DR280, but at least you'll be able to lift that sixth box to the top of the stack.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

How does a non-profit, (Read that as NO profit!) one-man sound and light business (Business? I guess) provide quality sound for gigs, sizes ranging from indoor shows for 50 people up to outdoor shows for 1000-1500 people?

By now you should have realized that there is no such thing as "one system" that will scale from 50 to 2000. There are some compromises that you can make.

If you go the DR280/T48 route and decide that help is something you can find (or hire) then you are one the way to a great sounding system for outdoor festivals.

If you go the DR200/T39 route then you are on the way to a great sounding system for indoor events that is really a one man setup/teardown.

With my system - eight DR200 + eight T39, I can easily handle an indoor event in a 25,000 sq ft room with 2500 people in attendance. Easily. With a hard limit of 150w per box. To take that system outdoors, I would need to have at least double the cabinet count.

That said, for 150 people in a 6500sq ft room, I take two DR200's and two T39's. I run about 50-75w into each box. That does not blow away the room. You would carry on a normal conversation on the far end, or crowd the stage and feel the thump. But, for the events where I do that, the ability to converse normally away from the stage is considered to be a plus.

So...it might be worth it to build a small(er) system of two or four DR200 + two or four T39 for the little events, and build six to eight DR280 + six to eight T48 for the larger events.

You can't mix the boxes...at least not in the same stack. But if you needed everything, then the DR200's + T39 would be side fill or delays without too much trouble.

Since 80% of my events (by count) need half my system or less, I am *very* happy with the DR200+T39 during the load out phase of those. The other 20% of my events (by count) account for 50% of my revenue, and I'm *very* happy that I have eight of each box.

Bear in mind that even though these cabs only cost a fraction of equivalent commercial designs, the cost does add up. Eight subs and eight tops would put you in the $5000 range. That doesn't include all of the other stuff you may need for doing gigs that size.

+1

I've easily spent that on my cabinets.

--Stan Graves

[James R]

I remember a awhile back Korth built and used 4 280's along with 4 T48's at an outdoor event. I can't find the review now along with crowd size.

[Chisten]

It’s great when you have so many options. It’s a little confusing but great. After Bill weighed in on the subject, (sorry everybody, but when the master speaks, the student should listen), I think that DR200’s might be the best tops for my system. My back agrees that stacking a bunch of smaller units is easier for 1 person then several larger ones My experience stacking 4 Carvin TRX215’s on top of 4 TRX218’s with 2 people, drove that one home, big time. They would also be easier to design a system to fly them
I also think that using the T39’s for the subs, makes sense. Again they would be easier for a one man operation. I do like the idea of wheels though, even on the smaller subs. I use a hand truck for the heavy stuff now, but that can still be a pain to manage.

Final solution?

First build.
6 DR200’s 2 built with a sixteen tweeter melded array. 4 with an 8 tweeter melded array.
6 T39’s. I’m leaning to the Deltalite 2510’s for drivers, Yes they cost more but I think they might be a little tougher. I work with high school kids teaching how to run sound, and after reading the warnings about overdriving folded horn speakers, it may be cheaper in the long run.

Second build (If needed)
6 more DR200’s all with 8 tweeter melded arrays)
6 more T39’s

Criteria met?
1. Sound good. From reviews, input and faith, check.
2. Versatility, check.
3. Light weight, 30 lbs per top, 60 per sub. Check
4. Not break the piggy bank.
a. 6 Deltalite 2510’s = $659.82 Parts Express
b. 6 Beta-8A’s =$329.82 Parts Express
c. 70 GT-1016 Piezo tweeters = $98.70 (includes spares) Parts Express
d. Building materials $500 (Wild guess)
e. Misc. components. $100 (Wild guess)
Total $1688.00 (Ouch! But still cheaper then 2 JBL JRX125’s and 2 JBL119’s $1799.97 from Musicians Friend) Choke… choke… check.

Solution found! I think! Now all I have to do is sell off my Behringer’s and start building. (Hey anybody want to buy some great Behringer speakers? Huh? Huh? Just kidding.)


Thanks everybody for the great input! I’ll keep you posted!

[Mikey]

6 T39’s. I’m leaning to the Deltalite 2510’s for drivers, Yes they cost more but I think they might be a little tougher ... 6 Deltalite 2510’s = $659.82 Parts Express

Especially working with teenagers, make sure that you're using brick wall limiters, and that they're locked. That alleviates the possibility of anyone frying your drivers when your back is turned.

Six BP102s = $407.94 BLT SOUND

2510 = Vd 147cc , BP102 = Vd 207cc

The Deltalite II 2510 will take more power than the S2010, but its xmax and xlim are the same, so there’s not much advantage to it. ... T39 plans

[WB]

First build.
6 DR200’s 2 built with a sixteen tweeter melded array. 4 with an 8 tweeter melded array.

Why wouldn't you build the arrays all full length for line array purposes? What I mean is, an 8 tweeter melded array is only about 9 inches high, or half the cabinet height.

[gdougherty]

It’s great when you have so many options. It’s a little confusing but great. After Bill weighed in on the subject, (sorry everybody, but when the master speaks, the student should listen), I think that DR200’s might be the best tops for my system. My back agrees that stacking a bunch of smaller units is easier for 1 person then several larger ones My experience stacking 4 Carvin TRX215’s on top of 4 TRX218’s with 2 people, drove that one home, big time. They would also be easier to design a system to fly them
I also think that using the T39’s for the subs, makes sense. Again they would be easier for a one man operation. I do like the idea of wheels though, even on the smaller subs. I use a hand truck for the heavy stuff now, but that can still be a pain to manage.

Final solution?

First build.
6 DR200’s 2 built with a sixteen tweeter melded array. 4 with an 8 tweeter melded array.
6 T39’s. I’m leaning to the Deltalite 2510’s for drivers, Yes they cost more but I think they might be a little tougher. I work with high school kids teaching how to run sound, and after reading the warnings about overdriving folded horn speakers, it may be cheaper in the long run.

Second build (If needed)
6 more DR200’s all with 8 tweeter melded arrays)
6 more T39’s

Criteria met?
1. Sound good. From reviews, input and faith, check.
2. Versatility, check.
3. Light weight, 30 lbs per top, 60 per sub. Check
4. Not break the piggy bank.
a. 6 Deltalite 2510’s = $659.82 Parts Express
b. 6 Beta-8A’s =$329.82 Parts Express
c. 70 GT-1016 Piezo tweeters = $98.70 (includes spares) Parts Express
d. Building materials $500 (Wild guess)
e. Misc. components. $100 (Wild guess)
Total $1688.00 (Ouch! But still cheaper then 2 JBL JRX125’s and 2 JBL119’s $1799.97 from Musicians Friend) Choke… choke… check.

Solution found! I think! Now all I have to do is sell off my Behringer’s and start building. (Hey anybody want to buy some great Behringer speakers? Huh? Huh? Just kidding.)


Thanks everybody for the great input! I’ll keep you posted!

It's just me and some say it's unnecessary, but I'd go with the full melded arrays in all your DR's. It's a bit more work, but the output is higher, the high/mid crossover is lower and you never have to worry about which is which during setup, especially if you face them with foam and grills. That's also something I'd suggest if you're going to be doing outdoors gigs. Go speakon connections, pick up the dripless boots for the speakons and you've got a semi-rainproof rig. Make sure to paint the whole access cover area with Duratex so you don't have to worry about pooling water in any crevices. I've done enough gigs where it was scramble to cover everything that it's nice to cover the amp rack and say let it ride.

I'd point you back to the T48 instead of the T39. Go as wide as seems reasonable with 3015LF's and a single T48 can handle smaller gigs without any difficulty. For the larger outdoor gigs the big subs are nicer and they're actually more manueverable than a T39 if you have to leverage them up onto anything. Rolling around they're also nice and stable. Weight wise they're only slightly heavier. I've done 3-400 people outdoors with just a pair. Indoors you could do the same with only one. Advantage is you could build just 4 T48's and keep up with or surpass the 6 DR200's so even though the 3015LF is more expensive, your driver cost is still in the same ballpark.
Also, checkout Leeland at speakerhardware.net for better pricing than you'll get at PE. His kits also include everything you'll need to put a DR200 together except for wood.

[DJPhatman]

Chisten, check www.speakerhardware.com before you buy. LelandCrooks runs that site, and he sells complete kits, minus wood, sound barrier, and finish. Plus, he's the world's only Duratex Dealer, you can only buy it from him or www.AcryTech.com .

I am doing 8 DR200s, 4 WH8s and 2 more dual HL10C loaded T39s. Once complete, I will have spent less than USD$3000 materials included. And ALL my DR200s will have melded arrays, so I have a complete 2nd system for back up, or for hire.

[Tim A]

Just bear this in mind: Bill concluded that you may need to use half again as many DR200's as DR280's to reach the same output. That sounds fine on paper, but a stack of 6 DR200's is 9' tall, and that's if they're setting on the ground. Raise them up to a reasonable level of even 4-5' off the ground and you're dealing with a very tall stack of cabs with a relatively small footprint that need to be stable. It's something I've been battling since I decided to use 200's for my own PA. I love the cab, but getting them to any real height for use as a line array is impracticle. I've since concluded that 3-4 per side is about max without a specialized commercial stand. Even if you can stack them that high and find a way to keep the stack safe, you'll need a stepladder in the trailer.

[AntonZ]

Glad you're going for DR200's. I own a single DR250 (for e-bass). While it is light for it's size and performance, I find the near cube shape makes it akward to lift and go up and down stairs. DR280 would be worse. For reference, I'm 39 years old, not particularly muscular but in good general shape and no back issues or whatever. I intend to keep it that way, so small cabs rule in my book.

There's a pic somewhere (I think Tim posted it) showing a DR200 right next to a DR250, the difference is a lot more than the mere numbers suggest. Charts seem to suggest the larger DR's are not that much louder, they just go lower.

For most BFM cabs, DR's in particular, the general advice for multiples is to start with a single cab to fully understand the process, make all the serious (and not so serious) mistakes only once, and come up with your own jigs or other clever inventions if you will. Then do the rest construction line style. Make pics and share, show us your sawdust

[Sydney]

That sounds fine on paper, but a stack of 6 DR200's is 9' tall, ...
you'll need a stepladder in the trailer.

My question: ( Is that still a 1 man job? ) was of course rhetorical.
For the reasons Tim just listed: The height of a stack and instability
I spend a lot of time on a 12 foot platform ladder ( 10'6" ), I have hung a lot of lights and speakers working off that ladder and with a 35lb+ speaker it was not a 1 man job - I needed another set of hands on a 2nd ladder.
So, as mentioned a specialized stand (assembled on the ground cranked up string-of-pearls style ) becomes necessary. Some sort of hoist and pulley system.

With my system - eight DR200 + eight T39, I can easily handle an indoor event in a 25,000 sq ft room with 2500 people in attendance. Easily. With a hard limit of 150w per box. To take that system outdoors, I would need to have at least double the cabinet count.

SoundInMotionDJ: That implies that your system as is may be sufficient for 1000 outdoors.
How do you arrange the 8 DR200 now? ( 2 stacks of 4 )
If you doubled you current setup would you still be able to set it up as a 1 man job OR would you need help?

[SoundInMotionDJ]

SoundInMotionDJ: That implies that your system as is may be sufficient for 1000 outdoors.
How do you arrange the 8 DR200 now? ( 2 stacks of 4 )
If you doubled you current setup would you still be able to set it up as a 1 man job OR would you need help?

Indoors, I use the DRs in four stacks of two. That allows me to cover a wide(r) ballroom. I have not done anything outdoors...but I would probably setup either four stacks of two to cover a wider area, or two stacks of four to cover a deeper area.

It takes me about 2-2.5 hours to load in, setup, sound check, and tape down the current system. Double the cabinets and I'd want help just to get it done in less time.

--Stan Graves