The Puzzle!
The Puzzle!
I have a problem.
How does a non-profit, (Read that as NO profit!) one-man sound and light business (Business? I guess) provide quality sound for gigs, sizes ranging from indoor shows for 50 people up to outdoor shows for 1000-1500 people? I do light and sound for charities, churches, and other venues, at little or no cost in the Columbia Gorge area. I am also a strong supporter of local musicians providing lights and equipment, at prices that vary from $0 to $100 bucks if I’m very lucky. (You don’t make a living in the Gorge, playing music.)
I’ve decided to dump my current Behringer speakers, (I know, they were cheap, and I didn’t know any better at the time.) and build some of Bill’s speakers to replace them.
The dilemma I’m having is which model?
I’m trying to meet the following criteria.
1. Sound good. (naturally!) This is playing music from hard rock, and blues, to bluegrass, gospel, and acoustic.
2. The ability to perform well at gigs ranging in size from small clubs and garages, to aircraft hangers and outdoor events. From 50 to maybe 2000 people.
3. Light weight so one 54 year old beat up sound tech can unload, set up, operate, tear down, and load the whole system without help, heart attack or hernia, in a reasonable amount of time.
4. Not break the piggy bank. I’ll spend more for quality components, (I’ve learned) but I don’t have the personal cash to get crazy. I’ve been married to the same woman for 30 years, and don’t want to face the RATH OF MOM!
In other words, I want a system that can be a close fit for most of the venues I play without building umpteen different types. (I want it all! A-HA-HA-HA-HAAaaah!)
I intend to build mains, subs and monitors, but am curious which models the general consensus believes I should build. I intend to go line array with these, so I’ll be building multiples of whatever the final choice is. I’m also interested in any tips, suggestions or ideas to make my one man operation better
I’ve had a chance to hear Bill’s speakers at a concert, and was impressed. I ordered the CD and was more impressed at his designs and build instructions. (Why is it that most engineering types, have no clue what it’s like to build or maintain their designs?) Finally I’ve been wandering the Forum and was pleased to see such a strong supportive community of Bill Fitzmaurice builders and users.
Thanks everyone for your interest, and support of newbie’s, and other builders and users!
How does a non-profit, (Read that as NO profit!) one-man sound and light business (Business? I guess) provide quality sound for gigs, sizes ranging from indoor shows for 50 people up to outdoor shows for 1000-1500 people? I do light and sound for charities, churches, and other venues, at little or no cost in the Columbia Gorge area. I am also a strong supporter of local musicians providing lights and equipment, at prices that vary from $0 to $100 bucks if I’m very lucky. (You don’t make a living in the Gorge, playing music.)
I’ve decided to dump my current Behringer speakers, (I know, they were cheap, and I didn’t know any better at the time.) and build some of Bill’s speakers to replace them.
The dilemma I’m having is which model?
I’m trying to meet the following criteria.
1. Sound good. (naturally!) This is playing music from hard rock, and blues, to bluegrass, gospel, and acoustic.
2. The ability to perform well at gigs ranging in size from small clubs and garages, to aircraft hangers and outdoor events. From 50 to maybe 2000 people.
3. Light weight so one 54 year old beat up sound tech can unload, set up, operate, tear down, and load the whole system without help, heart attack or hernia, in a reasonable amount of time.
4. Not break the piggy bank. I’ll spend more for quality components, (I’ve learned) but I don’t have the personal cash to get crazy. I’ve been married to the same woman for 30 years, and don’t want to face the RATH OF MOM!
In other words, I want a system that can be a close fit for most of the venues I play without building umpteen different types. (I want it all! A-HA-HA-HA-HAAaaah!)
I intend to build mains, subs and monitors, but am curious which models the general consensus believes I should build. I intend to go line array with these, so I’ll be building multiples of whatever the final choice is. I’m also interested in any tips, suggestions or ideas to make my one man operation better
I’ve had a chance to hear Bill’s speakers at a concert, and was impressed. I ordered the CD and was more impressed at his designs and build instructions. (Why is it that most engineering types, have no clue what it’s like to build or maintain their designs?) Finally I’ve been wandering the Forum and was pleased to see such a strong supportive community of Bill Fitzmaurice builders and users.
Thanks everyone for your interest, and support of newbie’s, and other builders and users!
Old enough to know better. but too young to care!!
That's a wide range. I doubt 4 cabs of any of the horns would be enough.From 50 to maybe 2000 people.
More likely 6 - 8 cabs ( see sales page for coverage guidelines )
( Hernia?, No thanks, had one repaired already )Light weight so one 54 year old beat up sound tech can unload, set up, operate, tear down, and load the whole system without help, heart attack or hernia, in a reasonable amount of time.
IMO: One guy, lighter weight, modular -
The bass: I think I would use smaller T24 or T39 ( approx 60lbs ea and 6.25 cu ft of pack space ) Start with 4, plan on 6 - 8 for the big stuff.
The tops: It it wasn't for the 2000 people requirement I would use DR200 or DR250...But for 1000 people you need 8 so...
Again based upon sale page recommendations and an outdoor system by N.Webber
http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5749
I would lean toward DR280/290 ( est 6+ for 1500 people )
Last edited by Sydney on Sun May 25, 2008 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Frankenspeakers
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:13 pm
- Location: Fremont Ca
Hi and welcome to the community...
From what I hear, you (the one man show) want a system that is scaleable from 50 to 1500 people, and a venue from a small room to outdoors. That is a large order
One thing that will make a difference is your building chops: If you got 'em- go DR; if not- go Omni. (assuming you gots de chops) The logical thing I would think of first is a system based on the DR200 as the top box, and the T39 as the sub. I would make the first four DR200's with the melded array, and the rest straight. The T39's I would suggest BP102 loaded and 16" to 20" wide. I'd start with 4 to 6. (Some people will suggest T48's but you said this was one guy on a budget, and 3015 loaded T48's might be a little pricey and you would need a helper to schlep the big boys around)
What I'm envisioning is starting out with 2-4 DR200's, and 2-4 T39's. This will get you going with the small to medium gigs. This will allow you to firure out how much you need for the bigger gigs. (I think you will settle on maybe 6 tops, and 8+ subs) As you know the outdoor gigs need twice the subs. Unless you have a bunch of rap or metal acts to support, I think you could get by with a one to one top/sub ratio. If you limit the amp power to about 120 watts per top, and 150 watts per sub driver, these should live long and prosper.
Oh, and stand by for a variety of opinions!
From what I hear, you (the one man show) want a system that is scaleable from 50 to 1500 people, and a venue from a small room to outdoors. That is a large order
One thing that will make a difference is your building chops: If you got 'em- go DR; if not- go Omni. (assuming you gots de chops) The logical thing I would think of first is a system based on the DR200 as the top box, and the T39 as the sub. I would make the first four DR200's with the melded array, and the rest straight. The T39's I would suggest BP102 loaded and 16" to 20" wide. I'd start with 4 to 6. (Some people will suggest T48's but you said this was one guy on a budget, and 3015 loaded T48's might be a little pricey and you would need a helper to schlep the big boys around)
What I'm envisioning is starting out with 2-4 DR200's, and 2-4 T39's. This will get you going with the small to medium gigs. This will allow you to firure out how much you need for the bigger gigs. (I think you will settle on maybe 6 tops, and 8+ subs) As you know the outdoor gigs need twice the subs. Unless you have a bunch of rap or metal acts to support, I think you could get by with a one to one top/sub ratio. If you limit the amp power to about 120 watts per top, and 150 watts per sub driver, these should live long and prosper.
Oh, and stand by for a variety of opinions!
There is no technical problem however complex, that cannot be solved or finessed by a direct application of brute strength and ignorance.
"Gimme the hammer... Naaaw not that one, the freakin' big one- I'll MAKE it fit!"
"Gimme the hammer... Naaaw not that one, the freakin' big one- I'll MAKE it fit!"
- Frankenspeakers
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:13 pm
- Location: Fremont Ca
Another thought: possibly make a couple of the T39's double the width, (32 or 40 W)for the larger venues if you are certain of help with the big gigs. otherwise 16"to 20" are much easier to move. Tim has pics of his daughter carrying a 14 wide T39 and that's not much smaller. I suggest the T39 because it seems the most versitle box that is easy for a one man operation. If you were 20, & built, 4 T48's are fine
THIS just in: http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5959
Oh, and the WH8 should be fine.
THIS just in: http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5959
Oh, and the WH8 should be fine.
There is no technical problem however complex, that cannot be solved or finessed by a direct application of brute strength and ignorance.
"Gimme the hammer... Naaaw not that one, the freakin' big one- I'll MAKE it fit!"
"Gimme the hammer... Naaaw not that one, the freakin' big one- I'll MAKE it fit!"
Using the DR200/DR250 outdoors
Since this is related...
What is the largest outdoor crowd that DR200's or DR250's played to? And how many did it take? ( and other relevant data, type of music etc..)
What is the largest outdoor crowd that DR200's or DR250's played to? And how many did it take? ( and other relevant data, type of music etc..)
Thanks for the fast responses, and great ideas!:D Yes, I think I've "got the chops" to build DR's. I've done a fair amount of woodworking and building. I’ve built several entertainment centers, beds cabinets and other projects, as well as being a mechanic and electronics tech. From looking at the plans, the DR's look very do-able with care.
I'm also in agreement that multiple tops and subs, will be needed. One reason I like this design is the ability to add tops and subs as needed.
I'm interested in the two different approaches so far to my problem. My back likes the idea of the DR200's, but the power freak side of me leans toward the 280 or 290's. (Decisions, decisions!)
Power amps aren't too much of an issue. By some quirk of fate, I can gig with a range from 2 Alesis Matica 500's, a Samson 700, Mackie 1400 and 1500 and 2500 watt Behringers.
If I'm following the input so far, would starting with DR200's with melded arrays, then later building 280's be a logical approach? Would DR200's work well outdoors as satellite speakers, by using a delay? I’ve had some success with this approach using conventional speakers, but from Bill’s instructions and the forum, I get the feeling this type of speaker design works by a different set of rules.
The consensus so far leans toward T39’s, both for weight and space requirements. If I would take the evolutionary approach mentioned above, would I out-grow them if I change my main speakers to DR280’s?
Great input so far! Thanks again!
I'm also in agreement that multiple tops and subs, will be needed. One reason I like this design is the ability to add tops and subs as needed.
I'm interested in the two different approaches so far to my problem. My back likes the idea of the DR200's, but the power freak side of me leans toward the 280 or 290's. (Decisions, decisions!)
Power amps aren't too much of an issue. By some quirk of fate, I can gig with a range from 2 Alesis Matica 500's, a Samson 700, Mackie 1400 and 1500 and 2500 watt Behringers.
If I'm following the input so far, would starting with DR200's with melded arrays, then later building 280's be a logical approach? Would DR200's work well outdoors as satellite speakers, by using a delay? I’ve had some success with this approach using conventional speakers, but from Bill’s instructions and the forum, I get the feeling this type of speaker design works by a different set of rules.
The consensus so far leans toward T39’s, both for weight and space requirements. If I would take the evolutionary approach mentioned above, would I out-grow them if I change my main speakers to DR280’s?
Great input so far! Thanks again!
- LelandCrooks
- Posts: 7244
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 9:36 am
- Location: Midwest/Kansas/Speaker Nirvana
- Contact:
T48's. They're surprisingly easy to move around. Just like moving a furniture dolly. With their height, you can lever them into the back of a truck and never lift the cab. Built from quality plywood, not BB, they come in just over 90 lbs.
T39's would be just right for the smaller gigs, but you'd need a bunch for the big ones.
DR 250's. The recent surge of 200's has overshadowed the versatility of this box. 45lbs with the neo. 3 200's = 2 250's, three 250's = 2 280's . The 250 is almost as easy a mover as a 200, much easier than a 280.
It's also easier to stack 3 or 4 of these than 5 or 6 DR200's for a big gig.
T39's would be just right for the smaller gigs, but you'd need a bunch for the big ones.
DR 250's. The recent surge of 200's has overshadowed the versatility of this box. 45lbs with the neo. 3 200's = 2 250's, three 250's = 2 280's . The 250 is almost as easy a mover as a 200, much easier than a 280.
It's also easier to stack 3 or 4 of these than 5 or 6 DR200's for a big gig.
If it's too loud, you're even older than me! Like me.
http://www.speakerhardware.com
http://www.speakerhardware.com
-
- Posts: 2627
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:13 am
- Location: Denver, CO
- Contact:
I'll second (or third) the T48's. Even at 30" wide they move easily and are lightweight in comparison to anything else commercially available. The 1/2" ply and extensive bracing make for durable but lightweight. As Leeland noted, I never have to lift mine except on rare occasions and usually I can find someone who'll lend a hand.
For tops, I'll also second Leelands call on the DR250. If you only needed to handle gigs up to 1000, then a set of 8 DR200's would be ideal from a budget/size perspective and they sound excpetional to boot. However, single 250's would be great for small gigs and better for larger gigs. If 60lb speakers don't put you off, then you might even consider DR280's since driver cost isn't substantially higher going from the Deltalite 10 to the Deltalite 12 and the box isn't too much larger than the 250.
I do pretty much the same as what you do, the paying gigs put gas in the van to cover travel to the non-paying gigs. One thought I have is feasability of it all. I have had the same dreams of doing shows for 1000-2000 people but as I've thought about it, the logistics change drastically when you move from a few speakers per side to a large scale system.
Here are several thoughts and things that made me pause and reconsider my dreams of running a large scale system. Flying speakers. Line arrays are great and for small sets of speakers can even be stacked on top of scaffolding but you're still limited in how much you can stack. I'm 6'1" and the thought of stacking 8ft of DR280 on top of a 5-6ft scaffold with me on top as well is a bit hairy. The alternative is building them with rigging and working up some system like N'Webber's to get a line up in the air (There goes your thought of doing it all yourself).
Larger systems require larger pack space. Think at least a small box truck, maybe a towed trailer. T48 are the way to go for larger gigs but 8 T48 and 8 DR250/280's still eat up a good chunk of pack space. Speakers consume about 2/3 of my pack space. Don't forget your monitors. Amp rack, board case, cables, mics, power all eat up the rest. If you don't already have one, you'll need a big trailer for a large system.
Small shows like I generally run, and I imagine you mostly do as well, are fine with just a FOH board. Get into an event drawing 1000+ and often people start looking for additional features like a dedicated monitor console. That's an extra board and a splitter snake. Now you certainly can't do it all on your own. To handle a show and setup of that size I'd want an absolute minimum of 3 people, FOH engineer, Monitor engineer and a capable stage hand.
Not trying to be a killjoy, just pointing out things that made me step back from my large scale asperations and be happy with where I'm at right now. Until He brings along additional hands and resources devoted to the cause like I am, there are some large obstacles between here and there, and some impracticalities if I expect to handle things on my own.
I also had to pause and consider what I'm called to do. My ministry vision is to provide sound at low/no cost to other ministry groups in the area here, specifically with an eye towards groups that can't afford it but really need it. Often anything for 1000+ can bring more dollar resources in, even if it'd be nice not to need to. Small ministry and music events are often already on a zero dollar budget and that's where He's got me helping out. Every once in a while He throws in something a little bigger and it's a blast, but it's still all stuff that I can handle easily on my own if I have to. Bottom line I came to was, is it about me and what I'm dreaming about? Or is it about being where He is and helping out with what He's doing. Maybe someday those two will merge, but for right now the need I'm meeting is much more small-scale than what I dream about.
That said, build as much as you can pack and handle on your own. If you've got it, someone will figure out where to use it
For tops, I'll also second Leelands call on the DR250. If you only needed to handle gigs up to 1000, then a set of 8 DR200's would be ideal from a budget/size perspective and they sound excpetional to boot. However, single 250's would be great for small gigs and better for larger gigs. If 60lb speakers don't put you off, then you might even consider DR280's since driver cost isn't substantially higher going from the Deltalite 10 to the Deltalite 12 and the box isn't too much larger than the 250.
I do pretty much the same as what you do, the paying gigs put gas in the van to cover travel to the non-paying gigs. One thought I have is feasability of it all. I have had the same dreams of doing shows for 1000-2000 people but as I've thought about it, the logistics change drastically when you move from a few speakers per side to a large scale system.
Here are several thoughts and things that made me pause and reconsider my dreams of running a large scale system. Flying speakers. Line arrays are great and for small sets of speakers can even be stacked on top of scaffolding but you're still limited in how much you can stack. I'm 6'1" and the thought of stacking 8ft of DR280 on top of a 5-6ft scaffold with me on top as well is a bit hairy. The alternative is building them with rigging and working up some system like N'Webber's to get a line up in the air (There goes your thought of doing it all yourself).
Larger systems require larger pack space. Think at least a small box truck, maybe a towed trailer. T48 are the way to go for larger gigs but 8 T48 and 8 DR250/280's still eat up a good chunk of pack space. Speakers consume about 2/3 of my pack space. Don't forget your monitors. Amp rack, board case, cables, mics, power all eat up the rest. If you don't already have one, you'll need a big trailer for a large system.
Small shows like I generally run, and I imagine you mostly do as well, are fine with just a FOH board. Get into an event drawing 1000+ and often people start looking for additional features like a dedicated monitor console. That's an extra board and a splitter snake. Now you certainly can't do it all on your own. To handle a show and setup of that size I'd want an absolute minimum of 3 people, FOH engineer, Monitor engineer and a capable stage hand.
Not trying to be a killjoy, just pointing out things that made me step back from my large scale asperations and be happy with where I'm at right now. Until He brings along additional hands and resources devoted to the cause like I am, there are some large obstacles between here and there, and some impracticalities if I expect to handle things on my own.
I also had to pause and consider what I'm called to do. My ministry vision is to provide sound at low/no cost to other ministry groups in the area here, specifically with an eye towards groups that can't afford it but really need it. Often anything for 1000+ can bring more dollar resources in, even if it'd be nice not to need to. Small ministry and music events are often already on a zero dollar budget and that's where He's got me helping out. Every once in a while He throws in something a little bigger and it's a blast, but it's still all stuff that I can handle easily on my own if I have to. Bottom line I came to was, is it about me and what I'm dreaming about? Or is it about being where He is and helping out with what He's doing. Maybe someday those two will merge, but for right now the need I'm meeting is much more small-scale than what I dream about.
That said, build as much as you can pack and handle on your own. If you've got it, someone will figure out where to use it
Wow! The bad thing about good advice is that it’s all good advice. Which way to choose.
Thanks! And a special thanks to gdougherty for the additional advice. I’m surprised to find someone as crazy er… dedicated as I am (just kidding). I do have a trailer that I use to haul gear, as well as a Ford Expedition to haul more gear.
You’re right about the gigs. 90% are smaller (200 to 500), but it’s beginning to bother me, having to turn down more and more of the larger gigs. Some of them actually might pay something.
It does seem to happen that things (and people) show up when you need them. If any of you end up in the Columbia Gorge area, drop me a line. It’s great to run into a bunch of people interested more then just making a buck.
trinityproduction@embarqmail.com
It would be great to meet some of you.
To recap:
The start smaller idea.
4 to 6 DR200’s and 4 to 6 T39’s
The build bigger idea.
4 to 6 DR250’s or 280’s and about the same number of T48’s
I’m beginning to think it might be a good idea to start with the smaller system, to master the speaker building technique, then move up to building the bigger system. It would let me provide a better fit for any event. In any case, I’d better start building soon. I’ll keep you posted on how it goes.
I’m still open to suggestions, and ideas, and will monitor this thread.
Thanks! And a special thanks to gdougherty for the additional advice. I’m surprised to find someone as crazy er… dedicated as I am (just kidding). I do have a trailer that I use to haul gear, as well as a Ford Expedition to haul more gear.
You’re right about the gigs. 90% are smaller (200 to 500), but it’s beginning to bother me, having to turn down more and more of the larger gigs. Some of them actually might pay something.
It does seem to happen that things (and people) show up when you need them. If any of you end up in the Columbia Gorge area, drop me a line. It’s great to run into a bunch of people interested more then just making a buck.
trinityproduction@embarqmail.com
It would be great to meet some of you.
To recap:
The start smaller idea.
4 to 6 DR200’s and 4 to 6 T39’s
The build bigger idea.
4 to 6 DR250’s or 280’s and about the same number of T48’s
I’m beginning to think it might be a good idea to start with the smaller system, to master the speaker building technique, then move up to building the bigger system. It would let me provide a better fit for any event. In any case, I’d better start building soon. I’ll keep you posted on how it goes.
I’m still open to suggestions, and ideas, and will monitor this thread.
- Harley
- Posts: 5763
- Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:45 pm
- Location: Christchurch, New Zealand - Authorised BFM Cab Builder
Apart from size to handle in your workshop;Chisten wrote:I’m beginning to think it might be a good idea to start with the smaller system, to master the speaker building technique, then move up to building the bigger system.
Building a DR280 is no different tothat of a DR250 or DR200.
Building a T48 is no different to that of a T39
No need to practice in my opinion, just go straight for what you think you are going to need right from the start!
- Dave Non-Zero
- Posts: 1939
- Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:59 am
- Location: Dundee, Scotland
- Contact:
remember with all the cabs here that the different models cannt be used together, so if you start building dr200s then switch to dr280 then you will end up with two separate systems. I started by building a pair of dr250s and then got 4 dr280s. I means i cant combine then into a bigger system.
I would recommend deciding on one cab and building lots if you need them. (i was surprised how much bigger the dr280 was to the dr250)
I would recommend deciding on one cab and building lots if you need them. (i was surprised how much bigger the dr280 was to the dr250)
-1 for thought terminating cliches.
Built and/or own:
8 x T48 24" 3015LF
6 x DR280
2 x DR250 old style beta10
2 x T36s 20" delta15L
1 x TAT
1 x dual Lab12 30" T60
In Progress:
2 x DR280
Built and/or own:
8 x T48 24" 3015LF
6 x DR280
2 x DR250 old style beta10
2 x T36s 20" delta15L
1 x TAT
1 x dual Lab12 30" T60
In Progress:
2 x DR280
If the small gigs pay zilch, and the bigger, money-making gigs are coming your way, perhaps it's for a reason. After all, I wouldn't expect MY kids to keep working for me for free. Would you?
Bear in mind that even though these cabs only cost a fraction of equivalent commercial designs, the cost does add up. Eight subs and eight tops would put you in the $5000 range. That doesn't include all of the other stuff you may need for doing gigs that size.
Since you can't mix-and-match horns, that's very good advice. You need to decide the maximum crowd you want to be able to cover, and then select the cabs that will work best for your situation. Even if you go with T48s and DR280s, you can still use those for smaller gigs.Harley wrote:No need to practice in my opinion, just go straight for what you think you are going to need right from the start!
Bear in mind that even though these cabs only cost a fraction of equivalent commercial designs, the cost does add up. Eight subs and eight tops would put you in the $5000 range. That doesn't include all of the other stuff you may need for doing gigs that size.
- Harley
- Posts: 5763
- Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:45 pm
- Location: Christchurch, New Zealand - Authorised BFM Cab Builder
...and, no doubt, at the amount of skin lost off your knuckles trying to carry them ( DR280 ) through the typical colonial sized doorway!Dave Non-Zero wrote:....I was surprised how much bigger the dr280 was to the dr250....
Some maths here;
Typical door = 710mm wide.
DR280 = 610mm wide
Fist ( one ) holding handle = approx 85mm wide - and you need TWO of them
- Dave Non-Zero
- Posts: 1939
- Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:59 am
- Location: Dundee, Scotland
- Contact:
One word Harley - Wheels!Harley wrote:...and, no doubt, at the amount of skin lost off your knuckles trying to carry them ( DR280 ) through the typical colonial sized doorway!Dave Non-Zero wrote:....I was surprised how much bigger the dr280 was to the dr250....
Some maths here;
Typical door = 710mm wide.
DR280 = 610mm wide
Fist ( one ) holding handle = approx 85mm wide - and you need TWO of them
-1 for thought terminating cliches.
Built and/or own:
8 x T48 24" 3015LF
6 x DR280
2 x DR250 old style beta10
2 x T36s 20" delta15L
1 x TAT
1 x dual Lab12 30" T60
In Progress:
2 x DR280
Built and/or own:
8 x T48 24" 3015LF
6 x DR280
2 x DR250 old style beta10
2 x T36s 20" delta15L
1 x TAT
1 x dual Lab12 30" T60
In Progress:
2 x DR280