A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

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Grllle
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A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#1 Post by Grllle » Sun May 31, 2020 9:48 am

Hi there!

My name is Bernhard, i’m from Hamburg, Germany.

I stumbled across BFM’s and this forum after i started searching, how to amplify my ‚musical‘ endeavour. And i’m quite hooked by what i'm reading so far!

For some time i’m having fun with a Moog subsequent 37, miked percussion and my voice through several pedals. I used to go into an audio interface doing somewhat differentiated, rhythmic drones and i especially liked it when the bass was shaking my headphones: Using octave pedals for the voice, low tuned drums and the synth in unison.

Now i started sharing a rehearsal room, running everything through a mixer into the existing pa. Only to realise that it's not capable of delivering that gut shaking bass in combination with the clarity of the percussion and voice that i'm looking for. The amp (Yamaha p5000s) starts clipping, the speakers (mackie c300) as well and the sub (Dynacord LM 15-1) isn’t helping either.
And this is with a DOD Meatbox on its way and me dreaming to incorporated that 60Hz and 30Hz madness in some way.

I’m running on a comparatively tight budget so those active pa monsters are out of range and after starting to make my first tremolo pedal i stumbled across diy speakers. The fearful’s and then bfm’s. And with the variety at this place and the open forum i’m starting to like the idea to build my own solution that fits my needs.

I would love getting your opinion what to choose for an expendable start that can be used in the rehearsal room but with prospect of small gigs. One, later two Omni 15 TB? Together with a Tuba 45 for that sub bass? How would i propel those cabs? I have a Pignose b100v but even being a noisy brat for its 100W i don’t know how far i could get with it. Or if a solid state is the better option - even with me liking the glow of those tubes.

Sorry for the long babbling. I’m happy that i found this place and will have a fun time reading and learning.

All the best,
Bernhard

Grant Bunter
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#2 Post by Grant Bunter » Sun May 31, 2020 3:42 pm

Grllle wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:48 am
... and i especially liked it when the bass was shaking my headphones...

... Only to realise that it's not capable of delivering that gut shaking bass in combination with the clarity of the percussion and voice that i'm looking for...

...And this is with a DOD Meatbox on its way and me dreaming to incorporated that 60Hz and 30Hz madness in some way...

...I’m running on a comparatively tight budget...

...I would love getting your opinion what to choose for an expendable start that can be used in the rehearsal room but with prospect of small gigs...
Hello Bernhard, and welcome to the forum :)

Do you have permission to alter what's in the rehearsal space?

DIY is really the only way to get what you want when on a limited budget.

The issue for you will be achieving your goal.
Headphones have spoiled you, in that, because they are so near your ears, you don't need a lot of power to get heavy bass from them.
Taking that into a rehearsal space or live performance is quite a different matter though.

You mentioned the T45, and 30Hz. The T45 will reproduce 30Hz, but you can only set it up to do that once you have 4 or more cabs (or you may blow your drivers).
So, even if you were to build just one initially, it's not going to do gut wrenching bass to 30Hz live, but it might do ok for the rehearsal space.

I'm not even going to discuss amplification at this time, because it depends on what driver and cabs you choose. But you will need other things as well. Like DSP, for example a DBX driverack, to operate your system and protect your investment. The DBX has all you'll need as a speaker operating system in Pro sound, which is where you're heading. It has crossovers, EQ, RTA, and most importantly, the right type of limiter, all in 1 rack unit.
Do you have your own mixer?

I take it you work by yourself?
If yes, you don't want to be trying to lift Omni 15 tall boys onto stands, when SLA Pro's, or Otops will do the job just as well, but weigh a lot less.

You may have lots of questions, please ask away, and we will try and help with answers...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

jimbo7
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#3 Post by jimbo7 » Sun May 31, 2020 4:19 pm

What tremolo pedal are you building? I made a 4MS Tremulus Lune from scratch years ago and it's the most amazing sounding and customizable pedal on my board. (Well, 2nd only to my original Boss DM-2 :wink: )
BFM builds:
XF212
T24 BP102 24"
2x SLA's 6-5" mids, 9- gt-302's
2x AT 14" MCM 55-2421
TrT 5" MCM 55-2421
AT 18" JBL GTO804
2x OT12 flat array
2x SLA Pro 2-Alpha 6's 2-Goldwoods
2x T39 24" 3012lf
Simplex 10 BP102

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Tom Smit
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#4 Post by Tom Smit » Sun May 31, 2020 9:14 pm

Welcome to the forum! You have come to the right place, for sure.
TomS

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Charles Jenkinson
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#5 Post by Charles Jenkinson » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:49 am

Hello Bernhard. Love your thread title. So true. Sounds like you're doing some interesting stuff.
2xJ12L (3012HO) switchable/melded
2xT30

Words&graphics - Audio&Acoustics - Hardware&DSP; 3 different paradigms.

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Grllle
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#6 Post by Grllle » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:05 pm

Thanks to all of you for the warm welcome and elaborated answers! I wanted to reply earlier but my cat died :(
Grant Bunter wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 3:42 pm
Do you have permission to alter what's in the rehearsal space?
Yes i can change things at the rehearsal space, for example swap the pa. The room has >30qm and there would be place for 2 subs and tops. Maybe even more if they are compact.
The T45 will reproduce 30Hz, but you can only set it up to do that once you have 4 or more cabs.
So, even if you were to build just one initially, it's not going to do gut wrenching bass to 30Hz live, but it might do ok for the rehearsal space.
Four or more subs. That sounds awesome and a bit scary at the same time :)
I wonder how the type of sub can influences the amount i need. I have the feeling that the decision 'fewer but bigger' vs. 'smaller but more' is a tough but crucial one? Is there a general thumb of rule like "go as big as you can handle for each individual sub"?

In general, an extendable system where i don’t have to upgrade parts but can add new cabs successively would be awesome.
for example a DBX driverack, to operate your system and protect your investment
I’m playing around with the noise gate and compressor of a DBX 166 XS for the two mics. It has a limiter as well but it doesn’t make much sense before the mixer. I already had a look at those Speaker Management Systems while looking for an EQ with more bands than those three of my mixer.
This seems to be an essential part of the system. Are those cheaper models (like the DBX DriveRack PA2) of good quality or should i invest more in this item. Or maybe there are underrated evergreens i could try to hunt down on the resell market?
Do you have your own mixer?
Yes. I'm using a Mackie 802 VLZ4 atm because it’s small, has to inserts for the mic effects and has aux in/out that i thought i could use for putting the mic channels with different levels through the meatbox (excluding the moog). Not sure if this is a good idea though.
I take it you work by yourself?
Yes, i’m by myself. I would have help of some friends though when it really comes to gigging. I could also use a van for transportation, at least when playing in my hometown and surroundings.
when SLA Pro's, or Otops will do the job just as well, but weigh a lot less.
I totally missed those SLA’s. I filed them under ‚home theatre only‘. They seem to be the less potent but easier to build solution in comparison to the OmniTops. And i just learned a new concept: ‚line array‘. It seems to be a concept for larger venues and distances so maybe some Otops are more fitting for my application and worth the more complicated build?
On the other hand those SLAs could be better for an extending system because they are smaller and easier to build?
Or would i need less Otops in comparison and should go for this route therefore?
My brain starts clipping :D
This seems to be a similar decision as with the subs. Is there a 'golden combination' of BFMs? I'm afraid that would be too easy...

Am i correct that i should use Otop 12s (not Otop 15s) in interplay with the subs?

Again, thank you very much for your input!
Last edited by Grllle on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grllle
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#7 Post by Grllle » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:07 pm

jimbo7 wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 4:19 pm
What tremolo pedal are you building? I made a 4MS Tremulus Lune from scratch years ago and it's the most amazing sounding and customizable pedal on my board. (Well, 2nd only to my original Boss DM-2 :wink: )
I’m building an optical tremolo (this one https://www.musikding.de/The-Tremolo-op ... remolo-kit). I found this while searching for a mute switch (that i will build as well). I did not express myself well though - i’m still waiting for those kits to arrive. The 4MS Tremulus Lune looks impressive! I wanted to start with something simple and because i need a tremolo i thought i just give this kit a try. I will report about my results!

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Grllle
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#8 Post by Grllle » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:13 pm

Charles Jenkinson wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:49 am
Hello Bernhard. Love your thread title. So true. Sounds like you're doing some interesting stuff.
Thanks man! It all started with me fulfilling my childhood dream of owning an analog synth. And then i started getting interested in pedals. And meditation. And now diy cabs. I love how many different topics come together with this. And i have the feeling that i'm quite a novice on all of them :D
But that's a good thing i suppose because the learning curve is always steep at the beginning.

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Grllle
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#9 Post by Grllle » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:30 pm

Grant Bunter wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 3:42 pm
The issue for you will be achieving your goal.
One thing i forgot. At the moment i'm using a stereo reverb for the Moog and i'm panning a tape delay on the left and right tops for voice. This is an awesome effect in the rehearsal room but from what i read, stereo is really hard if not impossible to do good in a live situation. Do you think i should limit myself to mono from the beginning?

Should i start different threads in the appropriate forums for successive questions?

jimbo7
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#10 Post by jimbo7 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:51 pm

Grllle wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:07 pm
I’m building an optical tremolo (this one https://www.musikding.de/The-Tremolo-op ... remolo-kit). I found this while searching for a mute switch (that i will build as well). I did not express myself well though - i’m still waiting for those kits to arrive. The 4MS Tremulus Lune looks impressive! I wanted to start with something simple and because i need a tremolo i thought i just give this kit a try. I will report about my results!
That's a pretty cool kit. The Tremulus Lune is optical and mine has dual LFO and wave pattern switch. Pretty much their old rack version in a pedal.

Sounds like you could benefit from stereo with all the toys you use. It's just too hard to keep all the people standing in the center to get the channel separation in stereo. Now a silent disco would be perfect! You wouldn't even have to build any speakers! I joke. :slap:
BFM builds:
XF212
T24 BP102 24"
2x SLA's 6-5" mids, 9- gt-302's
2x AT 14" MCM 55-2421
TrT 5" MCM 55-2421
AT 18" JBL GTO804
2x OT12 flat array
2x SLA Pro 2-Alpha 6's 2-Goldwoods
2x T39 24" 3012lf
Simplex 10 BP102

Grant Bunter
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#11 Post by Grant Bunter » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:56 pm

Here is fine, or start another thread if you want, but then you have to retype everything again!

The number of sub cabs:
It doesn't matter which design, it's always 4 or more before you can lower the high pass.
That's about sufficient mouth area.
Not lowering the high pass until you have 4 cabs is also about protecting your investment of time and money.

Size of subs:
Hoffmans law says loud, low, small, but you can only pick 2 of the three.
How big?. Size plays a part in determining volume, in that, the wider you build, the more output you get.
In the end, it comes back to how big a vehicle you have to move stuff, and, do you intend to play in places where entrance is via steps?
Wheels make cabs easy to move on the flat.
Then there's the space they occupy if not in use.

Choice of design:
Is solely based on what you want to reproduce in Hz. You mentioned 30Hz, that puts you with either the T30, or the T45, same cab, but different form factor, so choose based on form factor.
Even if you don't have 4 cabs, you will still get 30Hz with a 35Hz high pass.
If you're absolutely positive you're going not going to be playing 30Hz, then other cabs become an option.

Driverack (or similar):
It's not seems to be or essential, it's mandatory!
The PA2 would be just fine.
The DBX 166's limiter isn't what you use to limit your amps to protect your speaker cabs.

SLA Pro or Otop for tops?:
Again, depends a bit on the form factor you like.
Otop 12 would be my choice, not the 15.
SLA Pro, I probably wouldn't build if I was going to end up with 4 of them. Stacking 2 per side vertically (what you need to do) would worry me.
A forum member once said "SLA Pro are as loud as DR200", but if you wanted to end up with 4 tops, I would go Otops.
What are your woodworking skills like?
The simplest of the 2 cabs to build would be the SLA Pros.

How many cabs?:
If you were to play outdoors, it would be said to double the sub cab count ie 2 subs for each top. Indoors, 1:1 is fine.
So, to start, 2 subs and 2 tops is ok.

Stereo vs mono:
I run live sound in mono. I DJ in mono.
Here's why:
Do yourself a little experiment. Set up to play in stereo, just for yourself in your rehearsal space, with you standing in the sweet spot. Sounds great right?
Now move 1 pace to the left or right. Doesn't sound so good now, the farther away channel sounds weak, and outdone by the nearer channel.
So, you have to be standing in the sweet spot for stereo to work. Not good for your audience live. Stereo separation also disappears after about 4 metres.
Setting up in stereo, and panning left or right can be a great tool in live mixing for greater gain before feedback, but it's not for me.

Hope this helps some...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Grllle
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Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#12 Post by Grllle » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:57 pm

You're helping a lot!
Grant Bunter wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:56 pm
...that puts you with either the T30, or the T45...
The T45 has a better form factor for me transportation wise (longer and narrow). In the rehearsal room or on a stage my guess would be that the T30 may be easier to handle. I have to read more about that possibility to place them stood up though. Tough one, i'll have to think about those twice.

I'm pretty sure i want to hit the 30Hz mark with the Synth and the Meatbox.
Grant Bunter wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:56 pm
SLA Pro or Otop for tops?
So the OTop12 seems to be a good candidate. Does it make sense to choose the JArray even if it only would be 4 cabs in total at some point (i suppose 2x2 stacked?)
Grant Bunter wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:56 pm
What are your woodworking skills like?
I gained some woodworking skills in school - it's a long time but i built stuff occasionally and i would have some help (and a workbench) from a more experienced friend so i would dare trying to build those cabs.

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Grllle
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#13 Post by Grllle » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:02 pm

jimbo7 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:51 pm
Sounds like you could benefit from stereo with all the toys you use. It's just too hard to keep all the people standing in the center to get the channel separation in stereo. Now a silent disco would be perfect! You wouldn't even have to build any speakers! I joke. :slap:
I suppose those few people that would be willing to endure a show could be packed easily on a big couch in the middle of the venue :P

Grant Bunter
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Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#14 Post by Grant Bunter » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:53 pm

J array? No, I don't think it suits your purpose.
If you eneded up with 2 Otops per side, one of the great things about the Otops is they stack vertically flat (unlike the DR's and the J Array)…

Once you've decided which way to go, build the subs first. Follow the plans to the letter. You'll find the Otops easier after completing them.
Check out the European suppliers page for where to get what (like PL premium substitute), but your drivers I imagine you will get from Thomman de.
It adds a little weight to your cabs, but use Baltic Birch too, it tends to warp less once cut...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Tom Smit
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Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: A seeker wants to say hello to become a finder

#15 Post by Tom Smit » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:08 pm

The OTop15 is not of any extra benefit if you are using subs. SLAs are fine, so are the OTop12s, but have you considered the OTop8? It is a very strong competitor to the flagship, the DR250.
TomS

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