Hi from Florida!

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Trent Swei
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Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am
Location: Florida

Hi from Florida!

#1 Post by Trent Swei » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:08 pm

Hi y'all! I'm Trent and I'm a college student in beautiful, sunny Florida! I'm a member of a fraternity here on campus. I mention this because my brothers were looking at buying a new sound system. When I took a look at what they'd chosen, all of the speakers and subs were the cheap stuff you find on eBay and Amazon. Now honestly, none of these guys are audiophiles. And they really only have 1 requirement for the system: L O U D. But once I started researching building speakers, I started noticing that you can achieve much better, and louder, sound for a lower price than even some of this cheap stuff they were looking at buying.

I researched Bill's designs tirelessly and fell in love with them, as well as the community around them. My brothers loved the idea of building our own speakers as well. That being said, we're hoping you can all help us decide on what we should build/how many of each speaker we actually need.

Here are some of the parameters we're working with:
-These speakers will mainly be brought outdoors, used at tailgates, and then safely stored inside. The courtyard where the tailgates take place is approximately a rectangle 25 yards long by 20 yards wide. One of the 25 yard sides is bordered by a 2 story tall building and the other 25 yard side of the rectangle is a raised deck where the speakers will be.
-They want the speakers to be "concert level loud". Basically, they'd like to have the ability to make the outdoors feel like a club if at all possible (electrifying highs and mids; chest pounding bass)
-The music being played at lower levels will mainly be hip hop, electronic dance music, and country. At loud volume, it will mainly be local DJs playing electronic dance music and hip hop.
-Power supply is not a constraint.
-We only have about a $1500-$1600 build budget, but we have access to most of, if not all of, the tools we need in order to build.

We are currently thinking to build 6 Omnitop 12's and 4 Tuba 30s. I have a few questions regarding these speakers (also whether we're building enough OR too many). I haven't purchased the plans yet, so please let me know if the questions I'm asking can't be answered because of giving away too much info (we're trying to price up before we fully commit). I'll save this post and edit it as needed if that's the case:

For the Omnitop 12's: Is it possible to use a cheaper 12" woofer such as the Goldwood GW-1258? Of course, we'd be sacrificing a bit of the loudness factor I'd assume, but are there other ramifications from this? If this speaker isn't compatible, are there others that are? Also, how many sheets of 4x8 Birch does it take to build one of these?

For the Tuba 30's: Has anyone used any driver other than the listed Deltalite 12LF that they've liked better (and that is possibly cheaper)? How many sheets of 4x8 birch does it take to build one of these?

Regarding the Tuba 30s vs the Tuba 60s: Should we be considering building the Tuba 60 instead of the Tuba 30? Is it harder to build? Also, why can you use the Deltalite 12LF in the Tuba 30 but the Tuba 60 is recommended with Lab 12's? Is it because of the higher pressure in the horn in the Tuba 60, or is the Deltalite 12LF a suitable replacement? Also, does it take more sheets of 4x8 Birch to build a Tuba 60 vs a Tuba 30?

Sorry for such a long first post. I also apologize for trying to do this "cheaply". We want to build these correctly, but we also want to do it as cost effectively as possible. Do y'all think 6 Omnitop 12's and 4 Tuba 30's are the way to go? Are we building too few? Too many? Are there other designs that would be a better fit for us? And also, are we just biting off more than we can chew with this project?

Thank you all in advance! I'm really looking forward to your replies, and (hopefully) being a BFM speaker owner!

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J_Dunavin
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Re: Hi from Florida!

#2 Post by J_Dunavin » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:23 pm

Welcome!!
There’s a few other factors to consider as well.
Pack space and transportation may be a deciding factor in what you build.
Don’t forget to include your amps and crossover or sound processor.

Personally I believe your subs to top ratio is off. You would want more subs to top ratio.
You may consider a few T39s instead. I built six T45s and they are amazing, but for outdoor use the titan would give you better output. Others will be able to give you the reasons why.

Regardless, welcome again and have fun! Great group here, lots of knowledgeable people!
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

Trent Swei
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am
Location: Florida

Re: Hi from Florida!

#3 Post by Trent Swei » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:37 pm

Thanks for the reply J! Would the T39s get down low enough for rap/hip hop and electronic dance music? I worry they'd miss those super low, chest constricting bass notes that EDM is famous for

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Hi from Florida!

#4 Post by Bruce Weldy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:06 pm

Trent Swei wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:37 pm
Thanks for the reply J! Would the T39s get down low enough for rap/hip hop and electronic dance music? I worry they'd miss those super low, chest constricting bass notes that EDM is famous for
I'll dive in here......since you want to go low, then the T30 is probably your best bet. That's not a very large area that you are trying to fill, so you definitely don't need 6 OT12s. 4 will be plenty. You need at least 4 T30s, if not 6 for a proper balance of that kind of music.

Your biggest problem will be your budget - $1500 will get you a pair of OTops and a pair of subs....of course, any kind of crap you buy off the shelf for $1500 will not perform as well as the OTops and T30 - even at 2 each.

You are also going to need amps and a driverack for limiting......do NOT try to run these subs without limiting or you will quickly be buying new drivers.

The 3012LF will perform better than two of the cheap drivers. As far as the OTops, you'll want to use at least the 2512 if not the 3012HO. You might be able to save a little by going with the heavier drivers at a little lower cost, just not the cheap drivers. You'll also need to build crossovers for the OTops - you can get all of that in a kit from Leland at speakerhardware.com

You mentioned Birch plywood. Be aware, these are not built from Birch ply, but rather Baltic Birch. A much different animal. Typically comes in 5x5 sheets. It has even plies, not a thin veneer like regular cabinet grade Birch.

Bottom line - your budget is too low to build (or buy) a system that does what you are asking for.....you could pick up a bunch of used JBL JRX junk that would fit your budget, but it will sound awful and you'll blow it up regularly.

With $3k, you should be able to build 4 OT12s and 4 T30s with premium drivers and the passive crossovers for the tops....along with all the extra stuff you need to put it all together including plywood.

Digest that, then ask some more questions.....

Good luck and welcome to the forum. You'll find a lot of help here.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Trent Swei
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am
Location: Florida

Re: Hi from Florida!

#5 Post by Trent Swei » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:10 pm

Thanks for the reply Bruce! I worried our budget would end up being on the low end. Maybe we'll wait a bit longer and make due with what we have until we have the budget to do this right. I appreciate it!

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Hi from Florida!

#6 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:47 pm

Build the subs first, that's probably your weakest link. Do the tops later.

Trent Swei
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am
Location: Florida

Re: Hi from Florida!

#7 Post by Trent Swei » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:01 pm

Build the subs first, that's probably your weakest link.
That's very true Bill! Thanks for the reply on that! Maybe that's the way we'll go then. Then later down the road, we can invest in some of the Omnitops!

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Hi from Florida!

#8 Post by Bruce Weldy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:19 pm

Trent Swei wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:01 pm
Build the subs first, that's probably your weakest link.
That's very true Bill! Thanks for the reply on that! Maybe that's the way we'll go then. Then later down the road, we can invest in some of the Omnitops!
You can build 4 T30s with premium drivers with your budget. But, don't forget you need amps and a driverack......I can't stress enough that you MUST limit these subs.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Trent Swei
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am
Location: Florida

Re: Hi from Florida!

#9 Post by Trent Swei » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:43 pm

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:19 pm
Trent Swei wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:01 pm
Build the subs first, that's probably your weakest link.
That's very true Bill! Thanks for the reply on that! Maybe that's the way we'll go then. Then later down the road, we can invest in some of the Omnitops!
You can build 4 T30s with premium drivers with your budget. But, don't forget you need amps and a driverack......I can't stress enough that you MUST limit these subs.
We already had amps, equalizer, and crossover built into the budget (the budget I gave is only what we were allotting for actual speakers/speaker components). However, I've been researching limiters now that you've mentioned it. I know my DJ software has a built in limiter, but I worry about other people who may be playing music on them not having that. Do you have a limiter you recommend?

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Hi from Florida!

#10 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:08 pm

Don't let anyone use your gear unless they've given you a deposit large enough to cover the cost of replacing it.

ketoet
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Re: Hi from Florida!

#11 Post by ketoet » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:29 pm

A limiter is build into dsp units like dbx driverack and behringer dcx. These also take care of the crossover. The dbx also has the all the eq you need i believe.
The limiter is a MUST to run the subs without blowing them up especialy around young people who want it as loud as possible.
Even with a limiter in place aways keep an eye on guest dj's . They'll run hard into the limiter and cook the voice coils.

Hope you have fun on this adventure, i know i did.

Greetz ketoet
building BFM speakers isn't a hobby , it's an addiction

1 x THT
1 x autotuba
2 x dr250 melded

2 x wedgehorn 10
2 x tlah

Bruce Weldy
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
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Re: Hi from Florida!

#12 Post by Bruce Weldy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:17 pm

Trent Swei wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:43 pm

We already had amps, equalizer, and crossover built into the budget (the budget I gave is only what we were allotting for actual speakers/speaker components). However, I've been researching limiters now that you've mentioned it. I know my DJ software has a built in limiter, but I worry about other people who may be playing music on them not having that. Do you have a limiter you recommend?
Forget about any stand alone limiter, software limiters, etc. You need to be able to limit the voltage to the subs exactly the same every time - thus, you need a pro level DSP for your system. You can get a driverack used for a couple of hundred bucks. It will do your limiting, crossover, EQ, and more.

Horn-loaded subs do no respond like the direct radiators that you are used to using/hearing. With direct radiators, you can hear the driver start to fart-out .... that's how you know when to turn it down. What you are hearing is harmonic distortion. Horns filter out the harmonic distortion - thus, you will never hear that you've hit the wall - they just quit working.

If you expect other DJs to be on your gear, then you should require them to run through your mixer and don't give them total access to the system - that way you can say no more and turn it down. DJs are notorious for driving everything into the red. That just damages gear and sounds like ass. With a clean, fat system that is under control, the sound quality will be much better and the crowd will like it.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Tom Smit
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Re: Hi from Florida!

#13 Post by Tom Smit » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:05 am

Welcome to the forum!
TomS

88h88
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Re: Hi from Florida!

#14 Post by 88h88 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:50 am

Trent Swei wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:43 pm
We already had amps, equalizer, and crossover built into the budget (the budget I gave is only what we were allotting for actual speakers/speaker components). However, I've been researching limiters now that you've mentioned it. I know my DJ software has a built in limiter, but I worry about other people who may be playing music on them not having that. Do you have a limiter you recommend?
DJ software might have a limiter but that doesn't stop someone fiddling with the amps. And know for a fact that DJs don't know how loud anything is on the floor due to being behind the stack and monitors offer no real feedback for that either. That and your hearing also basically tries to protect itself from loud noises so what is really loud eventually starts to sound less loud so you turn up to compensate... I did this on Friday until I noticed my VU meter on the mixer higher than it was at the start of the night.

If you're spending the time making these you'll want to get a lot of use out of them so make sure there's a hardware limiter in line.
4xOT12s, 2xT39s@22", TTLS@18", 2xT60@18"

Trent Swei
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am
Location: Florida

Re: Hi from Florida!

#15 Post by Trent Swei » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:02 am

Thanks everyone for all of the helpful responses! I found a DBX PA2 that looks like it may be a good buy! I just have one final question, and then I think I have all the info my brothers and I need in order to start ordering parts:

We've considered going with Tuba 60s instead of Tuba 30s. They seem absolutely incredible, as I'm sure everyone here knows. Is there a reason though that the Tuba 60 requires the LAB12 drivers instead of the Delta-12LF drivers recommended for the Tuba 30s? Can the Delta-12LF drivers just not withstand the pressure in the Tuba 60 horn? Or is this a suitable driver substitution?

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