A lot of plans...

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Svartrose
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A lot of plans...

#1 Post by Svartrose » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:21 pm

Hello,

My Name is Martijn. I'm from the Netherlands. Together with my girlfriend we started a company to go after our dreams. Sound video and lights for bands and dance. We design stages, setup everything from movingheads to speakers. And when it's getting dark we know how to deal with a Grandma 2 or our A&H Qu-SB.

We like to do things right for a low price.

We haven't got any speakers yet. I've been reading this website and forum for a long time. And I bought all the plans and have red the ones that interest me. DR200/250, Tubas/Titans, Simplexx Wedge, SLA pro, OmniTop, and Wedgehorn's.

We like to start with speakers that can be used for all kinds of purposes, without EQ, to minimize gear.
Simplexx Wedge 12 will be it. :)
After that Dr200's and Titan39's
Tuba 24's to support the Wedge's (as Main PA, DJ monitor or drum fill) if needed.

We will look for Crown amps second hand and/or import from China. And of course something like a Drive Rack 260.

A lot of things to do! Let's start at the beginning... wedges, amps and microphones...

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DJPhatman
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Re: A lot of plans...

#2 Post by DJPhatman » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:02 pm

Well, it's about time you signed in and said "Hello"! :cowboy:

Welcome to the forum, Svartrose!

I'm reading your post, and it's very obvious that English is not your first, or second, language! :wink: So, let's break it down into smaller pieces, and see if we can answer/comment/correct your postings, okay?
Svartrose wrote:We like to do things right for a low price.
Well, you've come to the right place!
Svartrose wrote:We haven't got any speakers yet. I've been reading this website and forum for a long time. And I bought all the plans and have red the ones that interest me. DR200/250, Tubas/Titans, Simplexx Wedge, SLA pro, OmniTop, and Wedgehorn's.
That is a TALL list of designs. Tell us what you want to do, and how many you want to cover, and we can go from there.
Svartrose wrote:We like to start with speakers that can be used for all kinds of purposes, without EQ, to minimize gear.
This is where the "trouble" is. No speaker design on Earth can run in every venue without EQ. For sound reinforcement, EQ is mandatory, not optional. You claim that you have been reading this forum for a "long time", yet you still have not learned basic set-up and tuning for the room/venue, which is discussed on here quite frequently.
Svartrose wrote:Simplexx Wedge 12 will be it. :)
After that Dr200's and Titan39's
Tuba 24's to support the Wedge's (as Main PA, DJ monitor or drum fill) if needed.
Again, you are not understanding what is taught on this forum: pick a single design for your needs, then add to the cabinet count until you get the needed SPL. You can not mix designs covering the same frequency range. DR200 or DR250 for mains are perfect. T39 for subs will fulfill over 90% of any gigs you will be doing, including EDM. T24s on stage, a big NO-NO! :cop: Doing so would only serve to potentially ruin the FOH sound, where it matters. The people that are at the venue to listen, and spend their money, are all that matters.

You are at an advantage right now. You are starting from nothing. I would suggest you build some T39s first. They will build your woodworking confidence, and you can build a pair fairly quickly and use them with other brand gear. Source the parts for them before you do anything else, being in Europe makes it a little difficult to source materials and parts.

I also suggest you read a lot more on this forum. Ask questions about anything you don't fully understand. Try contacting forum user "AntonZ". He has not signed in since 23 November, 2015. He has a pair of Wedgehorn 8 and possibly a few other designs. He could also be a great source of information for finding parts and materials.
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

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Svartrose
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Re: A lot of plans...

#3 Post by Svartrose » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:24 pm

Haha, sorry for my English.

I know that the room will effect sound. But what I ment was that in a small cafe we won't bother using EQ. People don't care about it there. But of course we will use our ears and measuring mic at more serious places. We are very pity about lights and sound :)

We don't want to mix all kinds of speakers, ha, ha. What we want is a set of speakers we can use in all kinds of situations. From a DJ or band in a cafe to big stages. (simplexx /tuba 24 for small events, Dr200 / T39 for bigger events)

We now use Dynacord/EV wedges and EV subs and tops for smalles events. For Bigger stages an Adamson Spektrix set is used. All those are not ours. We want PA-systems of our own! I don't expect that DR200's can compete against Spektrix/labgruppen, but who knows.... with the right EQ-settings and good setup....

There are a lot of designs on this website. We make as less as possible and do as much as possible with them :)

At a place we work a lot they have a horrible sound system and even more horrible acoustics. We use a lot of EQ there.
We like to start giving them the opportunity to let bands play there. That's why we want to start with wedges as floormonitor.
There are many presentations there too. We like to use the wedges as main PA then instead of that horrible system they have.

I'll ask a lot before we start building. :) I hope that I made myself more clear... :)

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Svartrose
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Re: A lot of plans...

#4 Post by Svartrose » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:25 pm

..

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Re: A lot of plans...

#5 Post by DJPhatman » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:09 pm

Svartrose wrote:..
I stand by my suggestions. You need to erase your mind from "bigger is better". 12" wedges are not the way to go, unless you stage is the size of a voetbal (soccer) field. You will have the 12" competing with the subs for the <100Hz. Not a good thing. Plus you can't mix Simplex 12s with Wedgehorn 8s.

Build T39s first. Get your "feet wet". Then build whichever DR2x0 you decide. Then build Wedgehorns. You need to be looking for a good quality mixer, at least three 2-channel amps, and we strongly suggest a DSP, such as the dBx Driverack, Behringer DCX2496 and DEQ2496 or the Ashley Protea™ System Processors, to name a few. These give you all the EQ, crossover and more in a small footprint.
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

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Re: A lot of plans...

#6 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:50 am

Hi, and welcome to the forum :)
This isn't so much a problem with your English, but more a problem with your mindset.
I don't say that to be offensive in any way, but if you want to delve into events and pro sound, do it right.
Svartrose wrote: I know that the room will effect sound. But what I ment was that in a small cafe we won't bother using EQ. People don't care about it there.
You might not think so, but they do care. Those people have friends, who have friends, and so on.
If you make sound wonderful in a small cafe, word will get around you guys are great!
Always use EQ. It's a pro sound attitude.
Svartrose wrote:We don't want to mix all kinds of speakers, ha, ha.
Good! The reason you shouldn't mix cab is they all have differing phase response.
Differing phase response in the same band pass causes frequency cancellations.


What we want is a set of speakers we can use in all kinds of situations. From a DJ or band in a cafe to big stages. (simplexx /tuba 24 for small events, Dr200 / T39 for bigger events)
Why?
Use one lot of cabs for everything you do!
Simply reduce the amount of cabs, and the lower the volume, at smaller venues.


We now use Dynacord/EV wedges and EV subs and tops for smalles events. For Bigger stages an Adamson Spektrix set is used. All those are not ours. We want PA-systems of our own! I don't expect that DR200's can compete against Spektrix/labgruppen, but who knows.... with the right EQ-settings and good setup

Bill's designs will compete, with less power. Although you may need more cabs than you think.

Bill has also said in past that it makes no sense to use larger drivers in monitors than in the mains.
So, if you're going to use Simplexx 10's as wedges, then build DR250's. Wedghehorns will work better than anything in the Simplexx line though.
Speaking of monitors, either the Simplexx or the Wedgehorn line will not respond like most commercial varieties.
Bill's monitor lines are all designed to maximise vocal intelligibility. That's great for presentations, but not so if you are going to play any music as well.
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Re: A lot of plans...

#7 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:23 am

Svartrose wrote:I don't expect that DR200's can compete against Spektrix
You mean these?
https://www.adamsonsystems.com/en/produ ... x/spektrix

One DR200 is easily the equal of two of those cute little things. :lol:

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Svartrose
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Re: A lot of plans...

#8 Post by Svartrose » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:39 pm

It's hard to believe that they will be better. There's a 450,- CP-driver in those spektrix but when the time is there we will setup them next to each other and let you know the results.

Thanks everybody. We will think over everything.

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Re: A lot of plans...

#9 Post by Grant Bunter » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:48 pm

Svartrose wrote:It's hard to believe that they will be better. There's a 450,- CP-driver in those spektrix but when the time is there we will setup them next to each other and let you know the results.

Thanks everybody. We will think over everything.
Sure, the drivers in those cabs also need plenty of power to take them to maximum volume.
That adds expense when it comes to amps.

Bill's designs, at least in the majority of the pro audio type designs, are horn loaded, so have higher sensitivity, meaning less power to drive them to the same volume.

The reason I'm suggesting one lot of cabs (for example T39's and Dr200's) for everything is simplicity in setup.
The T39 has higher output than the T24, with the same high pass points. So, at least to me, it makes more sense to build only T39's. Small gig > take one sub, one top/main. Larger gigs, as many cabs as you require...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Re: A lot of plans...

#10 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:35 pm

Grant Bunter wrote: The reason I'm suggesting one lot of cabs (for example T39's and Dr200's) for everything is simplicity in setup.
The T39 has higher output than the T24, with the same high pass points. So, at least to me, it makes more sense to build only T39's. Small gig > take one sub, one top/main. Larger gigs, as many cabs as you require...
He's absolutely correct. A scaleable PA is much more friendly in many ways.

I have 4 - 25" T39s and 2 - 22" T39s. I can take anywhere from 1 to 6 based on the size of the gig. The amp rack always stays the same...just different settings on the Driverack based on the size of system.

However, regardless of the size of the gig, I always use all 4 tops....they just sound better with two a side.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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