Central Illinois

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FrankORandle
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Central Illinois

#1 Post by FrankORandle » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:12 am

I just ran across Bill's designs last night after I saw a reference on another forum to a Tuba Table. Inquiring minds want to know. I kept digging and every plan I previously had in building a club system flew out the window. A couple hours later I ordered Bill's CD. I have no intention of building the majority of them but I feel that the two plans I want are well worth the money. I'll use the other plans to learn from.

So now my new and improved plans are to build four DR200 and four T48. In my original plans I had already started gathering parts. Lucky me, I had ordered four Eminence Delta Pro 8a which is what the DR200 calls for. They were going to be my midbass drivers and now they still will be. Thankfully I didn't order the four Eminence Omega Pro 18A and the four Kilomax Pro 18A. I have a thing for actively crossing things over that comes from a couple decades installing club systems.

I am not building the system for a club, I am building it for my basement. Yeah I know, crazy. I stopped working in clubs about 5 years ago and I miss the sound and setting up systems. This was my job and it is now my hobby. My former hobby is now my job that is paying for the new hobby.

Eventually I will probably sell the entire system to a club when one comes along looking for me to do their sound. They always find me. I just bought the 31 band EQ, a 2 way X-over and a Yamaha P2500S amp. I had planned on using 2 of them for my tops, two P5000S for my bass and two P7000S for my subs. I will still use two of the 2500's for my tops but now I have to rethink the bottoms. I just discovered the Titans last night so my mind is buzzing as I keep researching the parts while I wait for the plans on CD.

I come from old school club systems where I started in the mid 80's. JBL 4530's & 4520's scoops are all over this town loaded with either Cetec Gauss or McCauley drivers from the guy that was number one for installs before I came along. In my installs I always used Yamaha Club or Waveforce and always Yamaha amps. Waveforce were very short lived. They are power hungry to say the least but that was the main line that my local independent musical instrument store carried. I worked there on and off for 12 years. I was the sound/lights/DJ guy. I built up a very good reputation in Peoria Illinois with all of the club owners. I'm the one they call when no one else can figure out a problem.

Now I have to impatiently wait for my CD to arrive.
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Bruce Weldy
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Re: Central Illinois

#2 Post by Bruce Weldy » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:54 am

Welcome to the forum....

I've got good news for you....cut your amp package in half.

All four DR200s will run on one 2500 and all four subs on one 7000 - with room to spare.

These are very efficient cabs and don't use nearly the power that you are used to. The tops will probably never see more than 100-150 watts each and the subs will top out at less than 450 each.

So, one of each amp will do the job easily.

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en ... ations.jsp

Oh, and take back the EQ and the crossover and get a driverack. You will need limiting on the subs to keep from blowing 'em up. The driverack will do all of this in one rack space.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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FrankORandle
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Re: Central Illinois

#3 Post by FrankORandle » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:29 am

I'd prefer to keep the amps running at 8 ohm with only one speaker per channel. I like leaving myself room to grow and it is also good to have if an amp goes out and there isn't a back up to throw in. There is nothing worse than a packed club where half of the sound goes out and there is nothing that can be done on the spot.

I am definitely happy about saving money on not having to buy so many of the giant amps and woofers. In signal processors I am very used to using individual components and I do have a comp/lim in the plans even though I don't personally need one. Clubs definitely do. I have dealt with many blown systems where some guy tells the owner, "Oh I can do that". 99 times out of 100, no, they can't.

In my early days of working on systems I used a RTA before I discovered that I can pick out the frequencies that are not quite right to adjust them on a 31 band. I still have exceptional hearing which is amazing after decades of holding my head inside of bass cabinets plus having booth monitors and headphones blasting in my ears for so long as a club DJ. I haven't needed to use an analyzer in a very long time.

Based on your T48 power suggestion I will probably go with a pair of the P5000S since it is 500 per channel at 8 ohm and add another P2500S to the one I have. If one amp goes out the other can handle things. I don't mind using lots of rack spaces. It is more impressive looking to the untrained eye. The Yamaha amps are now 1 sp smaller than they were originally which I do like.

Having headroom with the amps is also something I like. No clipping. And it figures that the tops that I like are the hardest ones to build. I just discovered that when looking at the Omni's. Not a problem. I love a challenge. I haven't built any cabinets in 25 years. I was 25 last time I did it but I have been working in carpentry since I was 15. I prefer framing and when I got the idea to build a system I wanted to avoid miter cuts as much as possible. Oh well. I'll get over it.

I was going to build some pseudo JBL 4818 knockoffs that I drew up. They would have thumped but they would have been much heavier and cost more to build & run.
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Bruce Weldy
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Re: Central Illinois

#4 Post by Bruce Weldy » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:08 pm

FrankORandle wrote: In signal processors I am very used to using individual components and I do have a comp/lim in the plans even though I don't personally need one.
Actually, you do. The difference in folded horn subs and direct radiators is that you can't hear a horn farting out like a regular cab does, letting you know it's time to turn down. As the horn filters out the distortion, it will blow and you never see it coming.

You can certainly use a stand alone limiter, but dealing with knobs that can be moved isn't very safe in trying to keep a hard limit on the voltage.

I'm an old-school dog too......but, I own three driveracks now and wouldn't trade 'em for the world. I think my ears are still pretty good too, but I've had the RTA bail me out before and it was really worth it. Even using a standalone third octave, I'd still use a driverack for limiting, crossover, and EQing the system flat outside - then kick in the standalone third octave to EQ the room.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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FrankORandle
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Re: Central Illinois

#5 Post by FrankORandle » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:33 pm

In every install, rack security covers are mandatory. I also epoxy the EQ switch on the DJ mixer in the Off position. It voids the warranties on a new mixer but a dj mixer is cheaper to replace than a blown system.

At home I am not worried about anyone touching anything or something getting bumped. I hung steel angle on threaded rod from the basement ceiling as a shelf for the amps and processors. I was grateful for having a RTA in the early days. It is what I used to learn. No one ever taught me anything. I learned hands on, from listening and by observation.

Eventually I probably will break down and get a drive rack but to start off I want to stick with a lot of what I already know while I venture into Bill's designs. I don't want to overload myself with trying to learn too many new things at once. I have a feeling that I might be building more cabinets for other people that I know if they do what I believe they will. I am really excited about them. I don't really have any long term plans for the system other than gaining the experience of building it and owning it. At some point down the road I might end up selling it but that only be if someone cam to me looking for a club system. Doing this project is just something crazy for me to do that I enjoy doing.
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Grant Bunter
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Re: Central Illinois

#6 Post by Grant Bunter » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:56 pm

Hi Frank
Welcome to the forum :)

I'm confused.
In your opening post you said you're building for home use.
After that, you're talking about club use.

Err, which way are you going?

Other than that, DR200's and T48's will change your mind about sound reinforcment.
But yes, you do, absolutely, positively need a brick wall limiter...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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FrankORandle
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Re: Central Illinois

#7 Post by FrankORandle » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:20 pm

I am building a club system in my basement. I don't want a home stereo of any kind. I prefer pro audio. It is way overkill for a small basement and I actually don't have the room for it but it is one of those things that I want to do for the experience of building those cabinets and playing with pro audio again.

The looks of the system is also important to me. I want it to look impressive even though I will probably be the only one that sees it besides my roommate. I know that I won't be able to run it full volume in the house. I do plan on lining some walls with acoustic foam to help. I will barely be able to turn it up but I still want what I want. You only live once.
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CoronaOperator
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Re: Central Illinois

#8 Post by CoronaOperator » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:30 pm

What kind of music do you plan on playing thru these? You mention club and DJ-mixer, so if you play modern dance music then those T48's may not go low enough for todays artists as they only go down to 40hz. 30hz is the new 40hz these days with artists so maybe consider T45's or T60's. Even the once mighty SRX728's just don't cut it for dance clubs these days. Just a thought.
FrankORandle wrote:I also epoxy the EQ switch on the DJ mixer in the Off position
:shock: I suppose fair enough for a house mixer but todays mix DJ's wouldn't have any of that. However, they usually bring their own controllers anyways, which is why having a driverack with brickwall limiting is essential. Once set up, there is no amount of signal they can throw at the system to do damage.

Think of the driverack vs old school like a smartphone compared to a rotary phone. That one unit can replace several racks worth of gear. One driverack gives you 6 digital x-overs with variable slope, graphic EQ, 6 parametric EQ's, 6 limiters, 6 compressors + 2 on inputs, gain controls, RTA measurement, phase control, digital delay, etc, etc. That can all be stored on a preset, recalled, compared A/B back and forth to see if you made an improvement, etc.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

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FrankORandle
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Re: Central Illinois

#9 Post by FrankORandle » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:56 pm

I mainly play dance music from the 70's, 80' and 90's. I don't listen to a whole lot of the music that comes out now because I have to go through about 8 remixes of any song that I actually do like which ends up being around 1 out of 100 songs that come out. I probably haven't turned on a radio in well over 10 years. Going down to 40 is good enough for me.

The clubs in my small town rarely ever have any guest DJ's. The population here is only 250,000 so the club scene isn't all that great and most are short lived. I remember when driveracks first started appearing. I have set a couple in some systems that I have redone.

I already have a new 31 band EQ and 2 way X-over. A comp/lim is only $130.00 more compared to spending $400.00 to $600.00 for a driverack. I would rather invest the money in better woofers.
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CoronaOperator
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Re: Central Illinois

#10 Post by CoronaOperator » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:18 pm

FrankORandle wrote: I would rather invest the money in better woofers.
Without a "Brickwall limiter" you will do just that, although they will come in the same box that the last ones did and the only thing better about them will be that they still have magic smoke in them. :mrgreen:
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

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FrankORandle
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Re: Central Illinois

#11 Post by FrankORandle » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:14 am

I want to thank everyone for beating me in the head with the brick...wall limiter.

I am now convinced. My 2 way x-over will be going away and I will replace it with a DCX2496.

I found a tutorial and a link to a video here on setting it up. I have a very long ways to go before I will even get to touch the DCX2496 but that will give me plenty of time to be beaten in the head with other processors and probably a few drivers and amps. :D

My plans on CD are in the mail at the moment so I am not exactly sure what I will even be building yet other than knowing an approximate maximum size to be able to get the cabinets up the basement stairs that turn a corner at the top right in front of the door.

The current doorway is 28" wide. I have 29 1/2" width going up the stairs. I think that the maximum size I should go is 24" x 24" x 48". I am in love with the Titan and DR series. Once I get all of the plans I will look over the Tubas. Going deeper would be good but fitting them in down in the basement is another thing. I know I can fit 24" x 24" x 48" on their sides with the mouths coupled 2 cabs high.

I found a local sawmill that stocks Baltic Birch ply in 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" & 3/4" in 60" x 60" sheets. The 1/2" is $36.10 per sheet.
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David Raehn
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Re: Central Illinois

#12 Post by David Raehn » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:34 am

Don't forget that a 36" wide and 24" deep cab will easily go through a 29" door when you rotate it. I know sometimes spatial orientation gets overlooked when we stare at 2 dimensional drawings.....

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FrankORandle
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Re: Central Illinois

#13 Post by FrankORandle » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:45 am

I have a turn at the top of the stairs with the stairway having a 29.5" width. There is nowhere to be able to make that turn with a 36" x 24" cab. A 24 x 24 can go up and over without turning.

In the past I have successfully moved a 125 gallon aquarium up similar stairs with two corners, one right after the other. Those tanks measure 72" x 18" x 21" and weigh 206 lbs.
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escapemcp
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Re: Central Illinois

#14 Post by escapemcp » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:41 pm

Build the speakers in the basement? If you ever need to move them, you could easily demolish the house around them and remove them that way :mrgreen:

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FrankORandle
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Re: Central Illinois

#15 Post by FrankORandle » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:25 pm

I have a pretty good start on doing the numbers. I am not counting tools as a part of the system build.

The wood is about $724 which includes the 3/4" BB and some oak 1x4 from the jig plans. 17 sheets of 1/2", one is extra just in case, and 2 of 1/8"

Just for the 8 cabs finished with all extra hardware that I want on them it comes to about $3,883.60

Adding in the amps and everything else. $7,826.00. Not too far off from the $7,500.00 budget but since I went there I'll add in the other couple of hundred for speaker stands and a few accessories and it brings it up to $8,055.97.

Adding in tools is another $1,300.00 but they don't count as being a part of the system. Tools includes a $300.00 Kobalt table saw, pneumatics, 36 clamps from 3" to 48", bits, batteries, angle gauge and protractor. $9,355.97

I still have a few small items to add on but nothing more expensive than a nice saw blade and some wax paper. Brads, staples, T track guides.

My funding for the project trickles in so it will take me about 13.3 weeks to build it up. I'll start ordering things as the fund allows ending with the final order being the wood. I'll have the plans memorized by then. I am still reading the plans over and over, going through all of the Tips and Techniques threads again. Every tool that was recommended by Bill in the plans I will have. Everything that makes the builds easier, I will have. This won't be a rushed project. Once I get all of my numbers completely finished I can spend more time studying for the build. I want these puppies as close to perfect as I can get.

My funding for this is a bit unusual for a man. Women around the world send me money in small amounts 24/7 and I don't have to do anything. You knew I was weird when you saw what I planned to build in my basement.

I make my money with yarn and a crochet hook. LOL I design and sell extreme crochet patterns online to an untapped market. Once I design it, pattern test it and publish it people buy it. I published my first pattern last September and started making $250.00 per week from it, then $500, then $750. This week it broke the $1,000 a week mark. I just published my fourth pattern a few days ago and that one hasn't fully kicked in yet. My very first one is the one that has made me about 10 grand since I started. The fourth one will be as popular as the first one.

That's why I am not trying to restrict my spending. It is a new income that I kind of stumbled into by accident and all of the pieces fit together in my favor. It is money that keeps showing up in my account even while I am asleep. Gotta spend it on something so it might as well be something nice and loud.

My system build is just the start. I want to build a bunch of the other designs and give them away as Christmas presents. Speakers only, not systems. I may be crazy but I'm not that crazy. My brother-in-law would love the David's. A niece is the frontman and guitarist for a band. A nephew is a drummer. That is all down the road a ways. I plan on taking my time on my build. There is no deadline, no rush for a gig.

This is me and my money makers. I only sell the patterns so others can make them. The big round one behind me is the one that makes the most money. The others are still too new to be popular yet. It takes about a month to make one. Being that I am just a tad bit artistic I am going to come up with something bizarre for the paint jobs on the cabs. Probably some custom Duratex colors and artwork. I like to stand out. lol
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