A general hello!

[fatguyis1]

Hello, I'm glad I found Bill Fitzmaurice and his forum and plans. I’ve been considering what might be a similar design for a while and think I've decided not to reinvent the wheel.

I posted my "first" yesterday and haven’t seen it pop up yet, so I'm trying again. If the first one comes through eventually maybe I was under review.

Do Bill's plans also include suggestions for amps and crossovers? Has anyone built or had built for them any of Bill’s cabinets as active / powered versions? We are considering DR 280s and T 39s or 48s for outdoor and medium sized indoor rock bands. Advice / input?

Is it possible to use a pair of DR250s as front fill and blow the 300s to the rear of the seats or will "bad things" happen?

More to follow, but I want to keep it brief and I don’t want to get yelled at for not knowing all the posting rules. Thanks for your help and patience.

[miked]

Hello and welcome. You will find we are a much more understanding bunch than those on many other DIY cabinet boards. Generally, there is a high level of professionalism and manners here, and we like it that way.

AFAIK, the only BFM designs that have been built powered (with a plate amp on the back) are the Tuba HT (home theater) models. But also AFAIK, the plans don't include the recesses/airspace required for the plate amp. Those that have done it have designed a box that fits on the back of the sub, etc. This isn't a problem with a HT sub that lives behind the couch and never gets moved. Obviously, that's not the case with the T39/T48s.

Bill's plans do not include suggestions for amps and crossovers, other to say that subs need to be bandpassed and voltage limited b/c you cannot hear horn-loaded subs distort. That is part of the beauty and limitation of the design; the horn path filters out distortion and you won't know if you're feeding them too much juice. Feed them too much power and suddenly they just stop working. All of the plans for tops (OTops and DRs) include plans for a built-in passive crossover. All of Bill's top and sub designs are intended to be used with an active DSP such as a Behringer DCX2496 or DBX DriveRack series. The devices I just mentioned combine electronic crossover, limiting, RTA, EQ, etc into one 1-rackspace-size box.

It is not recommended to mix cabinets even within the same family. If you want DRs (and if you have the skill to build them, you absolutely should do so), stick with one design. The DR300 is intended for very large venues.

Here is what Bill says about the DRs.

Which DR for me?

How close is your audience? The closer your audience the wider the dispersion you need. The DR200 and DR250 both have an average horizontal dispersion of 120 degrees, the DR280 90 degrees, the DR300 60 degrees. If a goodly percentage of your audience is within 30 feet of the PA go with the DR200 or DR250. If your audience is beyond 30 feet, you have an average audience size of more than 800, and you have at least a two-man crew, DR300 will work. If your situation is in between those extremes consider DR280.

[Grant Bunter]

G'day fatguyis1,
Welcome to the forum

Many of us have been lifting heavy boxes, in my case, for decades.

Bill's designs are lightweights in actual cab weight, but heavy weights in performance, so it's refreshing to save my back setting up for a show/gig/event, and using less cabs due to higher efficiencies.
Adding amps to make cabs active not only increases weight, but means every cab now needs 2 leads run to it rather than one, ie one for power, one for signal.

So, doubling up on cable, 1 amp per box all weight and cost.
If you run in mono you could have a tops/subs system with one amp for smaller type indoor gigs!

Any reason why you're looking at the DR280?
They are large enough cabs. While some can lift and position them by themselves, enough people say they are a 2 person lift.
What are you calling medium sized rock bands?

IMO Bill's sales page audience coverage projections are quite conservative...

[dswpro]

Welcome to the forum!
You will find no end of opinions here and a real wealth of experience.
Your cabinet choices are important and there are a lot of considerations to keep in mind.
Bill's guidelines for distance to audience is an important one. I would also take a careful look at the box geometry and consider how you will be stacking / hanging / transporting your cabinets.
When I first looked I was very interested in the DR250. I got the plans and quickly realized that stacking them would not be very simple. Soon after I bought a used pair of Otop 12's and decided it was a lot easier to stack Omni Tops so I built a couple more.
I now have 4 T-39's and 4 Otop 12's which I have used for 500+ people. All of Bill's designs are extremely efficient. That means they get LOUDER with less power than pretty much anything out there and are a fraction of the price of commercial cabinets. I drive mine with a pair of Peayer IPR-3000 amps (450 watts per side into 4 ohms, 7lbs) and I am one happy camper. I use passive crossovers in the Otop 12's and a digital crossover to separate the signal to the subs and tops. You can Bi-amp any of Bill's Tops if you so desire and have the extra amps and crossover channels. There is an entire thread on this forum about amps and processors, takea good look and I would also look carefully at the pictures and videos on you tube of systems using Bill's speakers. Whatever you decide to build, I'm sure you will be very pleased with the results.

[fatguyis1]

Thanks for the warm welcome and constructive direction and input. I lean to the 280s for coverage and quality. I didn't get the feeling that O Tops would be sufficient. I may be wrong. Medium rock shows: I know that can mean just about anything to anyone; audience size from 300 up to 2500 + outdoors two weeks ago. Adding rental gear - quotes came in from $750 up to $3200!!!! just to augment the PA with the tour. I knew I could build it for that. I'm not sure how to reply without including all of what everyone says. HELP.

Hello and welcome. You will find we are a much more understanding bunch than those on many other DIY cabinet boards. Generally, there is a high level of professionalism and manners here, and we like it that way.

AFAIK, the only BFM designs that have been built powered (with a plate amp on the back) are the Tuba HT (home theater) models. But also AFAIK, the plans don't include the recesses/airspace required for the plate amp. Those that have done it have designed a box that fits on the back of the sub, etc. This isn't a problem with a HT sub that lives behind the couch and never gets moved. Obviously, that's not the case with the T39/T48s.

Bill's plans do not include suggestions for amps and crossovers, other to say that subs need to be bandpassed and voltage limited b/c you cannot hear horn-loaded subs distort. That is part of the beauty and limitation of the design; the horn path filters out distortion and you won't know if you're feeding them too much juice. Feed them too much power and suddenly they just stop working. All of the plans for tops (OTops and DRs) include plans for a built-in passive crossover. All of Bill's top and sub designs are intended to be used with an active DSP such as a Behringer DCX2496 or DBX DriveRack series. The devices I just mentioned combine electronic crossover, limiting, RTA, EQ, etc into one 1-rackspace-size box.

It is not recommended to mix cabinets even within the same family. If you want DRs (and if you have the skill to build them, you absolutely should do so), stick with one design. The DR300 is intended for very large venues.

Here is what Bill says about the DRs.

Which DR for me?

How close is your audience? The closer your audience the wider the dispersion you need. The DR200 and DR250 both have an average horizontal dispersion of 120 degrees, the DR280 90 degrees, the DR300 60 degrees. If a goodly percentage of your audience is within 30 feet of the PA go with the DR200 or DR250. If your audience is beyond 30 feet, you have an average audience size of more than 800, and you have at least a two-man crew, DR300 will work. If your situation is in between those extremes consider DR280.

[Grant Bunter]

Thanks for the warm welcome and constructive direction and input. I lean to the 280s for coverage and quality. I didn't get the feeling that O Tops would be sufficient. I may be wrong. Medium rock shows: I know that can mean just about anything to anyone; audience size from 300 up to 2500 + outdoors two weeks ago. Adding rental gear - quotes came in from $750 up to $3200!!!! just to augment the PA with the tour. I knew I could build it for that. I'm not sure how to reply without including all of what everyone says. HELP.

It's all good!

Hit the quote button up the top of any given post to quote one person.
If you want to quote more than 1 person, hitting one quote will give you a clue as to the tags required.
Or copy and paste and then highlight and hit quote in the toolbar at the reply screen.

The quote from Bill in Mike's post hits the nail on the head.
IMO, for smaller gigs, you might be better off with a pair or two of say DR 250's. If you audience is within 30 feet of your stage, you want the widest possible horizontal dispersion, the melded piezo array gives 120 degrees of that, so your up close audience gets coverage without centre fill. The melded array still throws in a straight line though, so the audience is still gettikng good HF at the back. Just so you know, all the DR series are quality cabs. You have to hear them to believe them!
Having said that, the 280's are the go for the big shows.

The choice between Otops and DR's is simply a matter of woodworking skills and time. If you need them quick, Otops is the go. Otops are only a couple of dB (average) down on the DR's. If you have the time and the skills, DR's are the bomb.

The choice between the T39 or T48 is also relatively simple, just depends on where you want to high pass. 4 or more T48's can be HP at 35Hz, 4 or more T39's at 40Hz. Pack space should be factored in.

It isn't encouraged to run these cabs with direct radiators or different horn cabs. It introduces phase issues.

So, you should tell us what you're using now, especially if you're looking at a supplemental build.

Word of warning lol, we'll be at you about how you set up as well. There is some great info to get the best out of your system available here.
Starting with:
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... f=10&t=398

If you're receptive, you can learn a heap. Some struggle with some of what's said here, because it goes against "Normal" convention, but is solidly based on fact rather than myth.

Hope this helps...

[LelandCrooks]

Tough call on your tops. If you do 2500 regularly you do need 280's. I would be tempted though in your case to build a fleet of 250's. 1-2 per side for small shows, 4 per side for bigger. I always ran two per side no matter how small because the coupling really improves the quality.

[fatguyis1]

Thanks Grant. I am taking all things into consideration. I may have addressed some of your questions in my response to MIKED. I appreciate everything!!!

G'day fatguyis1,
Welcome to the forum

Many of us have been lifting heavy boxes, in my case, for decades.

Bill's designs are lightweights in actual cab weight, but heavy weights in performance, so it's refreshing to save my back setting up for a show/gig/event, and using less cabs due to higher efficiencies.
Adding amps to make cabs active not only increases weight, but means every cab now needs 2 leads run to it rather than one, ie one for power, one for signal.

So, doubling up on cable, 1 amp per box all weight and cost.
If you run in mono you could have a tops/subs system with one amp for smaller type indoor gigs!

Any reason why you're looking at the DR280?
They are large enough cabs. While some can lift and position them by themselves, enough people say they are a 2 person lift.
What are you calling medium sized rock bands?

IMO Bill's sales page audience coverage projections are quite conservative...

[fatguyis1]

Thank you sire! I will be digesting your input and appreciate everything from everyone.

Welcome to the forum!
You will find no end of opinions here and a real wealth of experience.
Your cabinet choices are important and there are a lot of considerations to keep in mind.
Bill's guidelines for distance to audience is an important one. I would also take a careful look at the box geometry and consider how you will be stacking / hanging / transporting your cabinets.
When I first looked I was very interested in the DR250. I got the plans and quickly realized that stacking them would not be very simple. Soon after I bought a used pair of Otop 12's and decided it was a lot easier to stack Omni Tops so I built a couple more.
I now have 4 T-39's and 4 Otop 12's which I have used for 500+ people. All of Bill's designs are extremely efficient. That means they get LOUDER with less power than pretty much anything out there and are a fraction of the price of commercial cabinets. I drive mine with a pair of Peayer IPR-3000 amps (450 watts per side into 4 ohms, 7lbs) and I am one happy camper. I use passive crossovers in the Otop 12's and a digital crossover to separate the signal to the subs and tops. You can Bi-amp any of Bill's Tops if you so desire and have the extra amps and crossover channels. There is an entire thread on this forum about amps and processors, takea good look and I would also look carefully at the pictures and videos on you tube of systems using Bill's speakers. Whatever you decide to build, I'm sure you will be very pleased with the results.

[fatguyis1]

Leland,

I appreciate your help and input. I don't want to leave anyone out that sent me "welcome aboard" greetings...but it is tough trying to know who to say what to THANKS!

Tough call on your tops. If you do 2500 regularly you do need 280's. I would be tempted though in your case to build a fleet of 250's. 1-2 per side for small shows, 4 per side for bigger. I always ran two per side no matter how small because the coupling really improves the quality.

[fatguyis1]

Timpbizkit, Did you build your boxes or have them built or other? Do you have just the one top box?

Thanks for the listen. Hard to be sure but it sounds fairly clear at that distance with the concrete wall behind. THANKS! Send more help.

Well this is what a DR250 can do, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIgY99MDAqI off of about 250 watts!
Powerful subs are augmenting the bottom end but listen to how loud the voice is on that Jimi Hendrix song, and the last song!
Omnitops are probably about the same output, but just take say about 400 watts and a bigger driver to do so instead of 250.

[Tom Smit]

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

Here is a vid of OT15s along with T48s, to give you an idea of distance. I do realize it's not the DR280.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOkal-v9nO8