Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

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scooter83
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Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:28 pm

Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#1 Post by scooter83 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:15 pm

Hello everyone,
I am a musician as well as a amateur sound engineer for my family's local venue. All of my gear was picked up second hand and is slowly failing one component at a time. After learning about BFM designs, I've had a very hard time pulling the trigger on any new cabs as I love building things and have decent woodworking skills. I have purchased plans for titan 39s and Otop 12s. I need some help deciding what to build, I have been reading threads on here for about a year and still can't figure out what I want to do. The venue's main area is about 40x60 feet with high open ceilings. We do mostly metal and punk rock. I have been using 2x CW118v subs and 2x Peavey PR15s for the last few shows and they fill out OK but I know some BFM boxes will be worlds better.

I want to build 4x Otops but can't decide on CDs or melded piezos.

I need recommendations for the subs. Since I won't be moving the system out of the venue I was thinking two 2x12 titans would work but don't know.

I do have a driverack and a handful of amps to choose from.

Any feedback would be great!!!!

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#2 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 pm

I think you are on the right track for what you want to do. 4 OTops with CDs (use the 1.2k crossover version) and 4-6 T39s. All with the premium drivers of course.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#3 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:35 pm

But, Metal and Punk Rock in Wyoming???? :cowboy: :chainsaw:

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

scooter83
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#4 Post by scooter83 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 pm

Thanks Bruce,
Surprisingly those shows bring the biggest crowds in our neck of the woods!
so drivers on the subs- lab 12 or 3012LF?
on the tops, what benefit does say a 2512 have over a beta 12 besides weight? Power handling is the same but is there difference in sound quality?

ACUA
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Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#5 Post by ACUA » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:45 pm

If money is tight, I would say for the otop12 cab use the asd1001 compression driver and the beta 12” driver. You will be able to tune that rig to blow the Peavey rig out of the water. If you have some coin the 2512 driver is awesome. I have heard people say you can hear a difference but I am skeptical. I used the delta pro in mine, makes the cabs heavy. I wish I had bought the 2512 drivers. Personally I doubt I would know the difference if I had used all beta drivers.

I support the recommendation to use the 1.2k filter crossover configuration. I like the sonic characteristics of that configuration better but the compression horn is double or more the money. This path I feel yields a better sound but comes at a cost.

If you want to go exotic in a manor of speaking go with the piezoelectric array. More complex but hella cool, I have not had the chance to fully demo a properly splayed array of piezos but I have heard a sla pro setup with piezos, they sounded better to me than a typical compression driver.

As for the subwoofer, I recommend separating the builds and not double loading a single wide cab. Easier to build easier to move and are functionally the same as a single with minimum additions cost and work. I used the Lab12 drivers and I kick myself every time I try to move mine. If you can get the neo magnet version driver you should.
Advanced concepts underground audio

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#6 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:21 pm

scooter83 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 pm
Thanks Bruce,
Surprisingly those shows bring the biggest crowds in our neck of the woods!
so drivers on the subs- lab 12 or 3012LF?
on the tops, what benefit does say a 2512 have over a beta 12 besides weight? Power handling is the same but is there difference in sound quality?
Use the 3012LF. Same output, but lighter and cheaper. As to the 2512, yep it's lighter. Also, a little higher xmax and sensitivity. Not a big deal either way. But, I'd definitely spend the extra money to go with the CD at 1.2k crossover.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Seth
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Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#7 Post by Seth » Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:26 pm

Hey Scooter, welcome :thumbsup: I'm Seth.

Single load the T39's with 3012F drivers. Start with 4 and build them maximum width unless placement or transport requires a reduced cab width.

Much of the performance you get from the subs is a function of deployment and placement. Run all 4 in 1 stack, v-plated, corner or wall loaded. As hard as it may be to break away from the typically seen deployment, forget about splitting them up and putting them at the ends of the stage under the tops. Even if an available corner isn't near the stage or where you might think it looks good, try them there first.

Good read if you haven't already, Rules for Subwoofer placement and stacking

You can also use these rules with the subs you already have to improve coverage, reduce nulls, eliminate proximity cancellations, and maximize output.

In the Tops, any of the driver combinations will outperform what you have. 2512 and F151M-8's would be a great combo. However, I might not overlook the Melded Piezo option for the bottom cab of a stack if your audience is up fairly close to the mains. The wider dispersion could be an advantage in that case.

Glad to have you join in some conversations Scooter, good to have ya.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

scooter83
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#8 Post by scooter83 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:08 pm

Hi Seth!
Thanks for the advice on the T39s, i think I'll do that. I already don't put the subs under the mains per the post you linked. I currently deploy in front of the stage centered and in line with the mains, seems to work pretty good. With the T39s I'll be able to wall load and v plate them.
ACUA wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:45 pm
If money is tight, I would say for the otop12 cab use the asd1001 compression driver and the beta 12” driver. You will be able to tune that rig to blow the Peavey rig out of the water. If you have some coin the 2512 driver is awesome. I have heard people say you can hear a difference but I am skeptical. I used the delta pro in mine, makes the cabs heavy. I wish I had bought the 2512 drivers. Personally I doubt I would know the difference if I had used all beta drivers.

I support the recommendation to use the 1.2k filter crossover configuration. I like the sonic characteristics of that configuration better but the compression horn is double or more the money. This path I feel yields a better sound but comes at a cost.

If you want to go exotic in a manor of speaking go with the piezoelectric array. More complex but hella cool, I have not had the chance to fully demo a properly splayed array of piezos but I have heard a sla pro setup with piezos, they sounded better to me than a typical compression driver.

As for the subwoofer, I recommend separating the builds and not double loading a single wide cab. Easier to build easier to move and are functionally the same as a single with minimum additions cost and work. I used the Lab12 drivers and I kick myself every time I try to move mine. If you can get the neo magnet version driver you should.
Thanks for the input! I will follow the 1.2K recommendation, pretty much everyone I've messaged has said the same. I DO like the idea of maybe building a pair of melded piezos just to make the local "pro" engineers scratch their heads.

Regarding cost of drivers, I'm not overly concerned about price but don't want to short myself on performance if the dollar per increase in sound quality is substantial.

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#9 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:01 pm

scooter83 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:08 pm
I DO like the idea of maybe building a pair of melded piezos just to make the local "pro" engineers scratch their heads.
I built my second set of OT12s with the melded array. It definitely has a somewhat wider dispersion. But, it's not so much that I would do it that way again. In fact, I've thought about converting those to the CD version. I have a couple of NSD2005 drivers on hand - so they'd match the other pair.

I really think the CDs sound better. The piezos sound good, but the CDs seem to be stronger and more vibrant. Seems to have a "depth" to 'em. Of course that's totally subjective.....

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Bryan Cox
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Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#10 Post by Bryan Cox » Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:04 pm

Welcome, Scooter!

I definitely second Bruce and Seth here. I used the Delta 12-450a and piezo arrays in my Otop 12s and couldn't be happier. (If I had to do it again I'd use a neo driver). To be fair, I haven't heard the compression drivers and people rave about them. I went with the piezos simply because I thought they were a simpler build. (I was stationed in Germany at the time and didn't have access to many tools so simpler was better). Either way you go, you're gonna blow away the Peavey's (and everything else along the way).

The Titan 39s are phenomenal cabs. They blow away my JBL PRX 818XLFWs without breaking a sweat and on 1/7 the power. In my opinion, the 3012LF is the way to go. Basically the same as the LAB 12 but lighter and cheaper. You will not regret it. And if transportation is not a concern, build the widest cab specified in the plans. As for quantity, I'd build double your mains quantity. The Otops are very efficient and can easily outrun subs. A 2:1 (subs to mains) ratio is a good rule of thumb. I built 1:1, Otops to Titan 39s and need to double my sub count. My 2 cents.

Bryan
Otop 12 x 4 (Delta Pro 12-450a) 2x melded, 2x straight
Titan 39 x 4 (3012LF) 20" wide

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Chris_Allen
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Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#11 Post by Chris_Allen » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:56 am

If going for a 1.2 crossover frequency, the rising response of the 2512 over the Beta12 has no effect. The additional displacement of the 2512 will be of no benefit and if they are for a venue, the weight saving is of little use either. I would consider the OT212 as fixing them in position is easier than trying to get 2x OT12 to behave safely.

How big is the stage? When running the subs over 8ft from the wall in front of the stage can give you a really beneficial null point on the stage that reduces stage volume in the sub area, you can even tune it to make sure the drum kit is in a dead zone between 50-60. You can run two sets of T39s side by side as long as the mouths are within a wavelength, so that should get you up to 100Hz no problem. VPlating two pairs, who can build a nice little vocal monitor (lyrics monitor) extension in front of the stage.

The T39's should be at least 20" wide and as mentioned, the wider the better. Running 4 T39s with one driver rather than 2 T39s with two drivers gives you more flexibility in the event of failure. The limiter should protect you but it's better to be safe than sorry. Although they are intended for the venue, you should also consider that you might want to use them elsewhere on a few occasions.

Don't be afraid of using the Piezos, they work great and are virtually indestructible!
Built:
6xDR200, 2xT39, 2xT48, 2xJack110, 1xOmni10.5, 1xAutotuba, 1xT18, 1xSLA Pro, 1xW8, 1xW10

scooter83
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Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#12 Post by scooter83 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:26 pm

Chris_Allen wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:56 am
If going for a 1.2 crossover frequency, the rising response of the 2512 over the Beta12 has no effect. The additional displacement of the 2512 will be of no benefit and if they are for a venue, the weight saving is of little use either. I would consider the OT212 as fixing them in position is easier than trying to get 2x OT12 to behave safely.

How big is the stage? When running the subs over 8ft from the wall in front of the stage can give you a really beneficial null point on the stage that reduces stage volume in the sub area, you can even tune it to make sure the drum kit is in a dead zone between 50-60. You can run two sets of T39s side by side as long as the mouths are within a wavelength, so that should get you up to 100Hz no problem. VPlating two pairs, who can build a nice little vocal monitor (lyrics monitor) extension in front of the stage.

The T39's should be at least 20" wide and as mentioned, the wider the better. Running 4 T39s with one driver rather than 2 T39s with two drivers gives you more flexibility in the event of failure. The limiter should protect you but it's better to be safe than sorry. Although they are intended for the venue, you should also consider that you might want to use them elsewhere on a few occasions.

Don't be afraid of using the Piezos, they work great and are virtually indestructible!
I am set on the 1.2 crossover and will probably use the F151M CD. Regarding the T39s, I didn't thing of the failure situation so that makes sense to build them with single drivers. The stage is small, 16' x 12' x 22" high.

scooter83
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Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:28 pm

Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#13 Post by scooter83 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:55 pm

Another question- I know I have read it on here somewhere, but which duratex compound is recommended? Roller or spray?

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Greetings from Wyoming! Advice needed

#14 Post by Bruce Weldy » Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:46 pm

scooter83 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:55 pm
Another question- I know I have read it on here somewhere, but which duratex compound is recommended? Roller or spray?
If I was building 'em for a living, I'd probably spray 'em. But, for a few cabs at a time, I prefer to just roll 'em. It's thicker, there's no waste as you spray past the cab, etc. I use the rollers that Leland sells.....and they last forever. I don't think you could ever tell that my cabs are rolled and not sprayed

Always use some flat black paint as a primer - it's cheap, dries fast and allows you to use a lot less duratex.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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