DR-200-250 A/B

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hclague
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#46 Post by hclague »

Tim wrote:
I seriously doubt the low pass filter would add clarity.
I disagree, the low pass filter helps reduce the overlap in frequency reproduction between the woofer and the piezo's, thus reducing the time smear problems ( in theory ). Two sources producing the same frequency range at different times will absolutely affect the "clarity".

Hal

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Tim A
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#47 Post by Tim A »

Not in this case. If you'll read the information Bill posted, you'll find both the filter and the filler increase midrange sensitivity. Neither one was designed to act as a low cutoff due to driver overlap, the box and piezos do that on their own.

Form Bill's post:

"This low-pass filter compensates for the woofer's rising impedance in the midrange to allow higher current flow, and therefore about 2dB higher sensitivity from 1.6 to 2 kHz."

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Nordskov
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#48 Post by Nordskov »

Mikey wrote: First, I lifted the SPL charts, cut them off at 200hz, and stretched them, in order to get a better look at their bass response...

Image
Image

They're neck and neck from about 60-75hz. At 50hz, the O10 has about 4dbs advantage. At 40hz, the O10 has about 1db advantage. At 30hz, they're neck and neck again. This means that the O10 does not have better bass extension than the OT12, it just has a few more dbs in the 45-50hz area.
Hej Mikey.
You are not reading the charts right.

The average sensivity of the O10 is 100 dB, the OT212 is 106 dB.
Looking at the 50-100 Hz range the O10 drops 5 dB and the OT212 drops 15 dB.
At equal SPL (as they would appear on stage) you will barely hear the 50 Hz tone of the OT212, while the O10 will still be pronounced.
Sensivity is not all, a flat curve is.


Nordskov

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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#49 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Tim Ard wrote:Not in this case. If you'll read the information Bill posted, you'll find both the filter and the filler increase midrange sensitivity. Neither one was designed to act as a low cutoff due to driver overlap, the box and piezos do that on their own.

Form Bill's post:

"This low-pass filter compensates for the woofer's rising impedance in the midrange to allow higher current flow, and therefore about 2dB higher sensitivity from 1.6 to 2 kHz."
The primary purpose of the low-pass filter is to enhance performance within the woofer passband, but it also limits response above the woofer passband.

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Tim A
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#50 Post by Tim A »

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: The primary purpose of the low-pass filter is to enhance performance within the woofer passband, but it also limits response above the woofer passband.
Understood, but at what frequency? Don't the piezos kick in around 2k? If the low pass is improving response in that area, it would seem to have the opposite affect.

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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#51 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Tim Ard wrote:
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: The primary purpose of the low-pass filter is to enhance performance within the woofer passband, but it also limits response above the woofer passband.
Understood, but at what frequency? Don't the piezos kick in around 2k? If the low pass is improving response in that area, it would seem to have the opposite affect.
The low pass boosts from about 1.3kHz to 2kHz, woofer response above that is down compared to without the filter, and is essentially non-existent by 3.5kHz.

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Tim A
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#52 Post by Tim A »

Ok. According to PE, the 1016's go down to about 3500. Is that accurate?

If so, then Hal's theory deserves further investigation. I plan on installing the mods someday. It'd be worth retesting at that point.

Mikey
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#53 Post by Mikey »

Nordskov wrote:Hej Mikey.
You are not reading the charts right.
A flat curve is not "all". If that were the case, most commercial cabinets wouldn't exist, and Bill's designs would be an utter failure. While you are correct that flatter is better, equalization was invented for very good reason. The OT12 can easily be EQd to match an O10, by mostly CUTTING, not BOOSTING.

While the O10 and O10.5 are better stand-alone bass guitar cabinets than the OT12 and OT212 (on paper), due to their smaller size, flatter response, and little extra bass-end sensitivity, they are not the better choice for those planning a large, scalable system. The OT12/OT212 are much better mates to high-powered subs, such as the T39, T48, O15 Sub, etc.

To clarify ... if you are a bassist, wanting to use a top for small gigs, and the same top with a sub for larger gigs ... it would be more desirable to cut >100hz with the OT12 for smaller gigs than to have to push an O10 much harder than an O12 to provide the desired output to match your sub for larger gigs.

Taking the "technicals" out of the equation, even though the specs indicate that the O10 is a better stand-alone bass cabinet, this "ears only" test revealed that the ears in attendance preferred the SOUND of the OT12. IMO, it was the possibility of discovering revelations such as this one that prompted this entire test. All of the results proved that this testing was definately worthwhile, as it revealed many things that specs did not.

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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#54 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Tim Ard wrote:Ok. According to PE, the 1016's go down to about 3500. Is that accurate?
They run -10dB to about 2.5kz, though the melded array takes them to 2kHz.

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Nordskov
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#55 Post by Nordskov »

Mikey wrote:
Nordskov wrote:Hej Mikey.
You are not reading the charts right.
A flat curve is not "all". If that were the case, most commercial cabinets wouldn't exist, and Bill's designs would be an utter failure. While you are correct that flatter is better, equalization was invented for very good reason. The OT12 can easily be EQd to match an O10, by mostly CUTTING, not BOOSTING.

While the O10 and O10.5 are better stand-alone bass guitar cabinets than the OT12 and OT212 (on paper), due to their smaller size, flatter response, and little extra bass-end sensitivity, they are not the better choice for those planning a large, scalable system. The OT12/OT212 are much better mates to high-powered subs, such as the T39, T48, O15 Sub, etc.

To clarify ... if you are a bassist, wanting to use a top for small gigs, and the same top with a sub for larger gigs ... it would be more desirable to cut >100hz with the OT12 for smaller gigs than to have to push an O10 much harder than an O12 to provide the desired output to match your sub for larger gigs.

Taking the "technicals" out of the equation, even though the specs indicate that the O10 is a better stand-alone bass cabinet, this "ears only" test revealed that the ears in attendance preferred the SOUND of the OT12. IMO, it was the possibility of discovering revelations such as this one that prompted this entire test. All of the results proved that this testing was definately worthwhile, as it revealed many things that specs did not.
Sorry Mikey, I think I might misinterpret you.
I thought you were discussing the issue of the OT212 having equal bottom end at the same SPL.
My bad :oops:

But to me it seems silly to cut a cab 10 dB from 100 Hz and up. And it requires an EQ, which is not standard in every bass setup.

But you are right, ears are better reference than charts.

WB
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#56 Post by WB »

Mikey wrote:The OT12 can easily be EQd to match an O10, by mostly CUTTING, not BOOSTING.
This is the way I see it as well.

My take on it though, all the cutting should be done by using the gain knob, not a whole bunch of sliders on a graphic EQ. At this much reduced volume you boost the required bass frequencies a little. Running out of Xmax, (cab farting) is greatly reduced because of the large initial gain drop because of the huge high sensitivity above 100 Hz. This approach would require less drastic use of EQ, and a smoother outcome imo.

Mikey
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#57 Post by Mikey »

A few minutes of futzing with the amp and EQ would reveal the best way to go about it, but I honestly doubt that the adjustments would be as drastic as the SPL charts suggest. The main point is simply that the OT12 is just as viable as a stand-alone bass amp as the O10, having equal bass extension, yet it has the capability to work more efficiently and surpass the O10 when used with a high-powered sub. Before now, the OT12 was "poo-poo'd" by some as a stand-alone bass amp, in favor of the O10, but the ear test has shown differently. IMO, that's a good thing. Having the extra sensitivity available when and where you need it is a big plus.

R2D2
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#58 Post by R2D2 »

So, while we are being unconventional ....

How would a DR200 perform as a bass guitar cab for small gigs?

And for big gigs 2 x DR200 or DR 200 + T39 ?


How would this compare to the proven O10.5 (+O10.5 or T39) ??


Thanks!!

slyslam
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#59 Post by slyslam »

R2D2 wrote:So, while we are being unconventional ....

How would a DR200 perform as a bass guitar cab for small gigs?

And for big gigs 2 x DR200 or DR 200 + T39 ?


How would this compare to the proven O10.5 (+O10.5 or T39) ??


Thanks!!

That's actually my bass rig. The DR200 (mine is unported)by itself doesn't have enough low end to be used as a stand alone bass cab .But coupled with the T39... wow. It's clean, tight and...... loud! I tried both bi-amp(125 Hz) and with a passive crossover(150Hz). Having the Dr at ear level is just marvelous. Best quote came when my drummer asked me how many ten's I had in my kit!!!
i had in my kit!

R2D2
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#60 Post by R2D2 »

:D :D :D Seems like a DR200/T39 is a winner!

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