Psy Trance!

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Bruce Weldy
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Re: Psy Trance!

#16 Post by Bruce Weldy » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:18 am

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Bruce Weldy wrote: But, I do miss playing all the Allman Brothers stuff with my old band..
Now that's music.
Amen.

And you can't do it without a damn good bass player......this was a really cold day in January. Earl (RIP) played his butt off....

https://www.facebook.com/armslengthband ... 473512744/

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Psy Trance!

#17 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:05 pm

I saw them a number of times over the years. Unfortunately not with Duane, but IMO probably the best incarnation was with Warren, Allan and Dickey. I last saw them ten years ago, long after Dickey had left, and it just wasn't the same.
Insider tidbit: they were one of the last acts to use a cluster array. I saw them using one in 2004, and asked their road manager why they were still using a cluster array. His answer: "They own it, and they can't find anyone who wants to buy it". The next time I saw them two years later it was gone.

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Psy Trance!

#18 Post by Bruce Weldy » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:30 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:I saw them a number of times over the years. Unfortunately not with Duane, but IMO probably the best incarnation was with Warren, Allan and Dickey. I last saw them ten years ago, long after Dickey had left, and it just wasn't the same.
Insider tidbit: they were one of the last acts to use a cluster array. I saw them using one in 2004, and asked their road manager why they were still using a cluster array. His answer: "They own it, and they can't find anyone who wants to buy it". The next time I saw them two years later it was gone.
I saw 'em the first time after Duane and Berry were gone. Lamar and Chuck were with 'em then.

Then saw 'em again a few years ago with the last roster......ya' gotta' love Derek's slide playing. While of course I love the early albums, I really like Hittin' the Note - some great tunes on there.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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BrentEvans
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Re: Psy Trance!

#19 Post by BrentEvans » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:04 pm

Image
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

Think
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Re: Psy Trance!

#20 Post by Think » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:18 pm

Where is this topic going :cowboy: 's? ;)
Local psytrance party at the beach and cowboy hats are also ok to wear. :D https://youtu.be/H2ft_aSZiiY?t=190

"And now you now the real deal" :fingers:

Martin Lotz
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Re: Psy Trance!

#21 Post by Martin Lotz » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:39 pm

Hey all, first post here. I know it is an old thread but I am here to research and build a rig specifically for psy.

Now the reason your rig sounds so good with psy is the reason EVERY rig sounds great with psy, and also why psy heads can tell you when a rig is poop. Firstly, a large emphasis is placed on keeping bass IN PHASE at all times durong production. Kick and bass tracks will be nudged untill bass is perfectly in phase with the tail of the kick. If not the kick will be faded out before the bass line hits.

The second reason is psy masters are generally rolled off from about 70 Hz. So no nasty sub eating amp power, most of the energy is around 120Hz. So far as bass goes, it is literally MADE for horns.

The fact that there is also zero noise as none is recorded live also helps, so you can really push SPL with little harsh feeling to the tops and mids even on a crap rig. Far as big sound goes we try to play nice from the production side upwards 😊

Grant Bunter
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Re: Psy Trance!

#22 Post by Grant Bunter » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:59 pm

Hi Martin,
Welcome to the forum, but I reckon you should re post your introduction here:
viewforum.php?f=16
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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spiltmidi
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Re: Psy Trance!

#23 Post by spiltmidi » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:52 pm

Hi Martin,

Just a few things regarding what you have posted about psy-trance production.
Having produced psy trance for some years now, I add and explain some things you have said as it is abit misleading.

Apologies for the lesson but I feel it is important as I enjoy psy-trance production.
Martin Lotz wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:39 pm
Firstly, a large emphasis is placed on keeping bass IN PHASE at all times durong production. Kick and bass tracks will be nudged untill bass is perfectly in phase with the tail of the kick. If not the kick will be faded out before the bass line hits.
This practice is only one of many ways to produce a kick and bass line. http://web.csulb.edu/~lrodrig/testEquip ... torial.pdf explains what phase is (as reference). The process of doing this practice however can be by putting the samples in phase. But with psy-trance, your kicks are usually short tailed. This also depends on what genre you are producing. Forest (short), Full-on(short), Progressive(Short-Long). So having the short tail, it makes phase matching moot.

The usual process would be If you are using a sine wave, C1 = 32.70Hz and 32.7 cps (cycles per second) for your bassline. This is a constant yet not exciting bass. A kick is generated by starting at the root note OR within the key and then it sweeps down the scale and ends at a few octaves lower, example: C7 = 2093.00Hz tsweep = 84ms down to D1 = 36.71Hz. (This may sound like crap but for example sake, eq and other processes are used to clean and meld). Now you do not need to phase this as you are staying within the key and using your ears to find a pleasant sound.

Having said the above, this brings me to the kick being "faded out". The kick will always finish before your bassline is triggered. Sweeping down the scale and having the cps (cycles per second) changing within 84ms is just plain silly to try and accomplish phase alignment. So we use side-chain compression to help meld the two elements together. Automation of the volume could also be used but very time consuming.
Martin Lotz wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:39 pm
The second reason is psy masters are generally rolled off from about 70 Hz. So no nasty sub eating amp power, most of the energy is around 120Hz.
Why would you cut at 70Hz and loose your bassline? Always cut at 30Hz and down. Anything below 30Hz is a waste of energy.

Again, apologies for the length of reply, but audio production is a passion and something I enjoy.

Regards,
Evan
"Amplifiers don’t kill speakers, people kill speakers" - Don Boomer

Grant Bunter
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Re: Psy Trance!

#24 Post by Grant Bunter » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:32 pm

spiltmidi wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:52 pm
The usual process would be If you are using a sine wave, C1 = 32.70Hz and 32.7 cps (cycles per second) for your bassline. This is a constant yet not exciting bass. A kick is generated by starting at the root note OR within the key and then it sweeps down the scale and ends at a few octaves lower, example: C7 = 2093.00Hz tsweep = 84ms down to D1 = 36.71Hz. (This may sound like crap but for example sake, eq and other processes are used to clean and meld). Now you do not need to phase this as you are staying within the key and using your ears to find a pleasant sound.

Having said the above, this brings me to the kick being "faded out". The kick will always finish before your bassline is triggered. Sweeping down the scale and having the cps (cycles per second) changing within 84ms is just plain silly to try and accomplish phase alignment. So we use side-chain compression to help meld the two elements together. Automation of the volume could also be used but very time consuming.
Evan
Wow, just wow...
I only say this because, well, how long did it take someone to come up with a way to create a kick drum sound?

The really interesting thing to me, is the result you've described has absolutely no bearing on what actually happens with a real kick drum!
Is it possible that psytrance could be improved by using a real kick drum? I dunno.

A real kick drum has a fundamental frequency determined by it's construction. That frequency can be measured, and, by and large, any drum tends to sound better when tuned to it's fundamental.

Even then, there are two standout aspects to a kick drum sound;
The "thump" component, somewhere between 50-70Hz. This is determined by the fundamental tone of the drum, and, suffice to say, 63Hz isn't a bad EQ slider to find the right level. Thump will benefit from upwards harmonic reinforcement, and has sustain, out to about 750ms at 30z, 350ms at 60Hz.
The "click" component, somewhere between 2.5 to 4K. This is created by the bass drum pedal striking the drum head, and defines the bass drum note, letting it sit in a mix. To much click (as well as over compression) makes it sound like a death metal bass drum, not enough produces an undefined muddy bottom end. The click is short, to around 100ms.

I'd be really interested to see what you thought of a kick drum sound generated by using a 3K short duration tone as a sidechain trigger to a 60Hz sine wave...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

jimbo7
Posts: 571
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:45 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: Psy Trance!

#25 Post by jimbo7 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:24 pm

himhimself wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:45 am
Thank God the response wasn't country and western...
Don't think that that one went over all our heads. I understood the reference. And I'm only 34

https://youtu.be/cSZfUnCK5qk
BFM builds:
XF212
T24 BP102 24"
2x SLA's 6-5" mids, 9- gt-302's
2x AT 14" MCM 55-2421
TrT 5" MCM 55-2421
AT 18" JBL GTO804
2x OT12 flat array
2x SLA Pro 2-Alpha 6's 2-Goldwoods

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