T24 driver choices?

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clonman123
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T24 driver choices?

#1 Post by clonman123 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:03 am

Aloha :)
I'm looking to build a couple T24's. Wondering about advice on driver choices?
I need to keep the weight to the minimum so I want to use neo's. And I need to keep the efficiency to the max while still retaining the best quality possible and reaching as low frequency as possible.
It looks like maybe the Eminence Deltalite II 2510-4 Neo 10" Driver 4 Ohm might be a good option.
Any and all advice welcome :)

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: T24 driver choices?

#2 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:48 am

The 2510 is not a subwoofer driver. Acceptable driver T/S specs and driver recommendations are in the plans.

CoronaOperator
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Re: T24 driver choices?

#3 Post by CoronaOperator » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:09 am

clonman123 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:03 am
and reaching as low frequency as possible.
Hi and welcome to the forum. You will find lots of members here willing to lend advice on your journey. In a horn the low frequency cutoff is determined by the cabinet (length of the horn), not the driver. For a T24 that would be 45hz for less than 4 cabinets, 40hz for groups of 4 or more cabinets (larger mouth area of 4 or more cabinets can squeeze a bit more out of them).
What are you trying to do with these cabinets and what is your goal? Those answers can help us determine if you are on the right path. We all want you to succeed and pick the right path to begin with.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

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J_Dunavin
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Location: Appleton WI
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Re: T24 driver choices?

#4 Post by J_Dunavin » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:08 am

I 2nd that. I’ve built a few 24s can’t go wrong with the recommended drivers.
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

clonman123
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:00 am

Re: T24 driver choices?

#5 Post by clonman123 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:16 pm

Aloha :) Thanks for your replies :)

@Bill ...I'm confused(not surprising! I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject) ...the page about the T24 shows analysis with the S2010 as the driver...but that seems to be even less of a subdriver than the 2510..?? (8ohms 150w "bass guitar driver" vs the 2510 4ohm 250w) what am I missing? Regarding the list of driver recommendations: I need to price everything out and judge the feasibility of the project etc etc before I go buying plans or anything else for that matter. Is it possible to receive the list?

@Corona...Thank you for your welcoming :) The plan is to have a mobile rig to do street performance and special ceremonial events out in the wild....for small crowds(maybe max 100). The music type is a mix of bass/sub-bass heavy electronic ambient with acoustic looping, including alot of percussion. So the two subs need to be compact-ish in size(T24 16" is an ideal size...but I could maybe stretch a bit more if it could achieve a significant difference), as lightweight as possible(for transportation purposes), as power efficient as possible(because its a mobile rig) while still reaching as low a frequency feasible to honour the music.
...Thus the need for neo drivers to keep it lightweight. ...and am I right in understanding that a lower Ohm driver will be more efficient with power usage?

chrisj360
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Location: Bellingham, WA

Re: T24 driver choices?

#6 Post by chrisj360 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:43 pm

Typically outdoors you want 2 subs for each main equaling needing four T24's. If you can only do two subs, maybe look at the Titans as they are rated with a higher SPL but don't go as low as the Tuba's. It's always a trade off.

Neo-drivers will keep the weight down. Power usage will depend on how you wire and combine them (parallel or serial).

I'd suggest analyzing your music to see where you'd need to reach frequency wise.
2 x 21" T30's with Lab12's
2 x 28" T30's with Lab12's
2 x OTop12 with Deltalite 2512

clonman123
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Re: T24 driver choices?

#7 Post by clonman123 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:15 am

Im assuming that the T24's are designed for 10" drivers only.
It seems one of the only reasonable options for a 10" sub driver using a neo magnet is the Eminence Kappalite 3010LF-4 High Power Neo 10" Subwoofer 4 Ohm.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Kappalite_3010LF_4.pdf

Any advice on the suitability of this driver for a T24?

Grant Bunter
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Re: T24 driver choices?

#8 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:59 am

Hi and welcome to the forum :)
chrisj360 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Typically outdoors you want 2 subs for each main equaling needing four T24's. If you can only do two subs, maybe look at the Titans as they are rated with a higher SPL but don't go as low as the Tuba's. It's always a trade off.
It just so happens the T39 and the T24 have identical high passes based on the cab count Corona Operator mentioned earlier.
The T39's will beat T24's in output, with the same driver. One T39 at 16" wide has less footprint and physical pack space than two x 16" T24's.
clonman123 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:15 am
Im assuming that the T24's are designed for 10" drivers only.
It seems one of the only reasonable options for a 10" sub driver using a neo magnet is the Eminence Kappalite 3010LF-4 High Power Neo 10" Subwoofer 4 Ohm.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Kappalite_3010LF_4.pdf

Any advice on the suitability of this driver for a T24?
Yes, the T24 has a maximum driver size of 10".

You shouldn't use 4 Ohm drivers when you can get 8 Ohm drivers that will go just as hard.
The latest offering from Eminence in the Kappalite range is to replace the squarish basket 3010lf series with the KL3010lf series, which has a round basket.
Check them out.

4 ohm drivers will have response below 4 ohms, meaning you need 2 ohm stable amps.
That's not an issue with 4 ohm stable amps and 8 ohm drivers.
Running 8 ohm drivers is better for the amp too, as less output amperes are being demanded, and there are also less amperes being run though the voice coil.
If you can cope with a high pass of 45hz (which it seems you can when you selected T24's), T39's willl do you better.

You also absolutely need to factor into your budget DSP like a DBX driverack to brick wall limit for driver protection. That's mandatory, not desirable...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Signalsdrone
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Location: SW Ontario

Re: T24 driver choices?

#9 Post by Signalsdrone » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:25 am

clonman123 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:16 pm


@Bill ...I'm confused(not surprising! I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject) ...the page about the T24 shows analysis with the S2010 as the driver...but that seems to be even less of a subdriver than the 2510..?? (8ohms 150w "bass guitar driver" vs the 2510 4ohm 250w) what am I missing? Regarding the list of driver recommendations: I need to price everything out and judge the feasibility of the project etc etc before I go buying plans or anything else for that matter. Is it possible to receive the list?

Although I'm not an expert either, there are a number of factors which determine which speaker is optimal for which cabinet and its intended use. The speaker and the cabinet work in tandem with each other so you have to have a speaker with the proper Thiele and Small parameters for each type and size of cabinet. Watts and ohms are of least concern and have much more to do with which amplifier you intend to use with them.

That being said, Bill has decades of experience and I have effectively zero experience in cabinet design so I'll follow his advice and continue to educate myself through reading posts and articles.

clonman123
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:00 am

Re: T24 driver choices?

#10 Post by clonman123 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:01 pm

Ok...so I should mention that the idea is to use a T-AMP to drive these subs...for maximum power efficiency because this will be a mobile rig.
What seems to be the only thing on offer for t-amps is the Sure/Wondom t-amps:
https://www.parts-express.com/sure-elec ... --320-3328
http://store3.sure-electronics.com/audi ... fier-brick
Here's some specs for the "1000w" version:
Specifications:
• Input power: 36 to 60 VDC
• Output power (w/56 VDC power supply): 1,000W (2 ohms, THD 10%), 800W (2 ohms, THD 1%)
• Maximum current draw: 19A
• Frequency response: 20 - 20,000 Hz
• Minimum impedance: 1 ohms

So it seems these are happy with driving low Ohms. My power supply is yet to be built...so I can provide either 12,24 or 48 volts depending on what is needed/most efficient.

So assuming using this amp, wouldnt two 4-ohm subs in parallel(bringing it to 2ohms) be the most power efficient way to drive my subs? Or do I have my understanding backwards as to what is more power efficient: low ohms vs high ohms? I cant find a clear answer on the interwebs to this question!

Bruce Weldy
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Re: T24 driver choices?

#11 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:15 am

clonman123 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:01 pm
Ok...so I should mention that the idea is to use a T-AMP to drive these subs...for maximum power efficiency because this will be a mobile rig.
What seems to be the only thing on offer for t-amps is the Sure/Wondom t-amps:
https://www.parts-express.com/sure-elec ... --320-3328
http://store3.sure-electronics.com/audi ... fier-brick
Here's some specs for the "1000w" version:
Specifications:
• Input power: 36 to 60 VDC
• Output power (w/56 VDC power supply): 1,000W (2 ohms, THD 10%), 800W (2 ohms, THD 1%)
• Maximum current draw: 19A
• Frequency response: 20 - 20,000 Hz
• Minimum impedance: 1 ohms

So it seems these are happy with driving low Ohms. My power supply is yet to be built...so I can provide either 12,24 or 48 volts depending on what is needed/most efficient.

So assuming using this amp, wouldnt two 4-ohm subs in parallel(bringing it to 2ohms) be the most power efficient way to drive my subs? Or do I have my understanding backwards as to what is more power efficient: low ohms vs high ohms? I cant find a clear answer on the interwebs to this question!
Unless you can find an amp that has a brickwall limiter where you can limit voltage - don't go that direction.......(even if you can, it's a bad idea because you will change the internal volume of the cab.

Folded horns are different animals. They won't bark at you when they have had enough - they just stop, because you can't hear the harmonic distortion that you do in front-loaded boxes. Thus, they MUST be voltage limited.

That means running a speaker processor like a dbx Driverack and an amp.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

CoronaOperator
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Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: T24 driver choices?

#12 Post by CoronaOperator » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:18 am

clonman123 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:01 pm

So assuming using this amp, wouldnt two 4-ohm subs in parallel(bringing it to 2ohms) be the most power efficient way to drive my subs? Or do I have my understanding backwards as to what is more power efficient: low ohms vs high ohms? I cant find a clear answer on the interwebs to this question!
Although the amplifier outputs more power at lower ohm loads, that power comes from somewhere - your battery. There is no improvement in efficiency power wise going to a lower ohm load.

The only way to improve your efficiency is to use a more efficient cabinet and use them in multiples. 2 cabinets are twice as efficient (output per watt input) than 1. 4 cabinets are twice as efficient as 2, 4 times as efficient as 1.

If you can fit it, I would be looking at the T39. It is a more efficient cabinet than the T24. As wide as you can still make fit and carry.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6172
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: T24 driver choices?

#13 Post by Grant Bunter » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:47 am

+1 to what CO said above.
Another option, since you wish to go portable, is miniDSP.
Check that out.
clonman123 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:01 pm
Ok...so I should mention that the idea is to use a T-AMP to drive these subs...for maximum power efficiency because this will be a mobile rig.
What seems to be the only thing on offer for t-amps is the Sure/Wondom t-amps:
https://www.parts-express.com/sure-elec ... --320-3328
http://store3.sure-electronics.com/audi ... fier-brick
Here's some specs for the "1000w" version:
Specifications:
• Input power: 36 to 60 VDC
• Output power (w/56 VDC power supply): 1,000W (2 ohms, THD 10%), 800W (2 ohms, THD 1%)
• Maximum current draw: 19A
• Frequency response: 20 - 20,000 Hz
• Minimum impedance: 1 ohms

So it seems these are happy with driving low Ohms. My power supply is yet to be built...so I can provide either 12,24 or 48 volts depending on what is needed/most efficient.

So assuming using this amp, wouldnt two 4-ohm subs in parallel(bringing it to 2ohms) be the most power efficient way to drive my subs? Or do I have my understanding backwards as to what is more power efficient: low ohms vs high ohms? I cant find a clear answer on the interwebs to this question!
Ok,
You can't find an answer on the net to work it out.
So work it out yourself :)

Go here:
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electr ... lator.html

Enter 50V (let's say the voltage limit of your driver is 50V, we use volts because Watts is a calculation which = Volts times amperes, so can't be measured on the fly, whereas volts can).
Use 8 ohms as the impedance.
You'll see the results: 312.5W and 6.25 amperes

Hit reset, enter 50V and 4 ohms (one 4 ohm driver cab, or 2 x 8 ohm driver cabs in parallel)
Results: watts = 625W and 12.5 amperes

Same again but 50 and 2 (2 x 4 ohm) drivers in parallel
Results: watts is 1250, amperes is 25.

The last one is the teller. You ask the most from the amplifier in both watts and amperes at 2 ohm loads, which also asks the most from your power supply (ie battery).
The most efficient you can be in this regard is an 8 ohm load per channel :)
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: T24 driver choices?

#14 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:08 am

clonman123 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:01 pm
what is more power efficient: low ohms vs high ohms? I cant find a clear answer on the interwebs to this question!
That's because the answer is neither. Lower impedance gives higher output per volt, at the cost of higher current. Since power is volts x amperes there is no advantage to a lower impedance load with respect to power. Preceding posts have explained it pretty well.

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