Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

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jeremydta
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Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#1 Post by jeremydta » Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 am

Hi All

I have been scouring this forum and the BFM main pages for the last few weeks, and am ready to start ordering and was wondering if I could get some advice. I have had a renaissance of my electric bass playing and have formed a band with some dad's at the school. We have played a few times out already, and will probably do some semi-regular shows playing loud 90's rock covers. Maybe some originals soon as well. We are involved in the running of a small 3 rooms rehearsal studio where we use one of the rooms. Me and a few of the other guys are keen to start building a system so that we can play places where there is no PA. It would be nice to use them in our small rehearsal rooms as well, and playing recorded music at parties. Thinking of starting with t48, and then seeing how easy/ hard they are to build, then doing either DR250 or Otop12's. Have also thought about t39 and Otop 8's. I have a few questions, mainly about the subs as that is where we are starting

1. Drivers - which is the best one to get - money no object. Loudest and best. I'm confused as I read it as the loudest is the one with the biggest Vd, but others have chimed in that it's not necessarily so..... . I was thinking Lab 15 for the T48?? Others have said that 3015LF is the driver the cab was designed around so that is the better one (definitely lighter)

2. Plywood - I have rung around and only one place stocks it, but it's a fair drive away. Their ply is 9 ply for the 12mm. The other 2 places say their's is 5 ply, but thy have to order it in. Which one is better? Presuming outer layer is not thin

3. can you use these systems in a nearfield rehearsal room situation?

thanks in advance, and I have bought all the plans

Jeremy

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Tom Smit
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Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#2 Post by Tom Smit » Mon May 14, 2018 8:46 am

Hi, and welcome to the forum! Hope you continue getting a lot of enjoyment with the band!

The Lab15 was suggested as a replacement a few years ago when the price of neodymium went sky high, which made the 3015LF quite expensive.
Baltic Birch/Russian Birch is the preference. Many have successfully built with 5-ply sheets, where each ply runs 90 degrees to the next one.
TomS

Grant Bunter
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Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#3 Post by Grant Bunter » Mon May 14, 2018 3:12 pm

G'day and welcome to the forum :)

1: Loudest drivers when money is no object for T48's, look at the 18sound options which would should be listed in your plans.
Buying them in Australia is entirely another story.

2: In the USA, lots of builders use Baltic Birch, which is often 9 ply. It's a lot harder to find, and costs an arm and two legs here in Australia, though it does seem to be sold in most capital cities here.
All my builds have been done with Radiata based ply. It's lighter and cheaper, but warps more easily once sheet cutting begins (though there methods in the plans to correct this while building). The requirement for whatever ply you use is even thickness of all the ply's, and as you've already pointed out, no thin veneer on the outer faces.
Believe it or not, my go to source is Bunnings. They do a non structural radiata 12mm ply that is 2440 x 1220 (8 x4) for around $40/sheet.

3: Sure! But maybe think Jacks for the rehearsal space rooms. In my experience as a muso, rehearsal is just that. You don't need everything miked up, that's for gigs. So you also don't need a full live PA to rehearse. Jacks will have enough for vocals, + keys and kick if required, in a rehearsal space.

What to build? Because you're also looking at doing recorded music events, I'd go with the T48 over the T39.
I did the same as you, built the subs first. That gave me the confidence to build DR250's.
DR's or Otops? Depends on time available really. If you're in a hurry, build Otops (I reckon the Otop 12 for you rather than the Otop8). If you have more time, then DR's are worth the effort...
Last edited by Grant Bunter on Mon May 14, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

commander_dan
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#4 Post by commander_dan » Mon May 14, 2018 4:15 pm

:clap: Nice, another Perth BFM fan!

1. Yep, first choice 18Sound. Next choice 3015LF.

2. I used marine ply from Bunnings for my T30's. It's a bit heavier than the radiata stuff, and more expensive, but also it doesn't warp very much once cut either. And is water proof.

3. Absolutely! I use my system for everything. Including mixing records in a small room at home. They sound great at any volume level.

The subs are pretty easy to build once you get going, and the OT12's are even easier. DR's have a lot more components to cut and make so they take more time.
Built:
6 T30 (24", 3012LF)
2 OT12 (MA, 3012HO)
2 T24 (18", 3010LF)

Running:
DCX2496
XTi 2002
XTi 4002
TRAKTOR Z2
TECHNICS 1210 Mk5's

jeremydta
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:16 am

Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#5 Post by jeremydta » Tue May 15, 2018 4:51 am

thanks peoples -yes loving being in a band, we played our 2nd gig at Amplifier bar Dan, we were on 10 min after doors opening though, and 1st of 5 bands, but it was amazing to play such a loud set-up

1. why 18 Sound - why is it the loudest? Vd of Lab 15 (968), 3015 LF (846/938, 8/4 ohm) are both higher? I can only work out (can't find actual number) Vd of 18 Sounds as( Sd x Xmax) and getting 720 for the 9300, and 855 for the newer? 9400
2. think I'll stick with BB - only slightly more expensive, and supposed to be better? less splintering when cutting, and still pretty water proof, though a bit heavier than marine
3. ok, stick with t48 - going 24inch and 15inch driver?

thanks, again, Jeremy

Grant Bunter
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Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#6 Post by Grant Bunter » Tue May 15, 2018 3:52 pm

Subs and width: The widest you can possibly fit into the pack space you have determines what width you should build.
The wider you go (within the limits in the plans) the more output you get.
Mind you, an 8 x 4 sheet cut in half lengthways will give you cabs around 23 15/16" wide, but as wide as you can carry (not so much physically, but in a vehicle) is the motto.

18sound. Let's face it, there can't be enormously huge differences in Vd when comparing various 15" drivers. They all have a nominal 15" cone.
Vd is most useful in comparing between drivers of different sizes and different power handling capacity. Eg, 1 lab 12 vs 2 x BP102's.

Still, as per the plans (check out the "protecting your driver" section), the 18sound has the highest voltage displacement limit described in the plans, so it will go loudest.
The 18 sound has roughly twice the peak power handling capacity of the lab 15 in an infinite baffle. You can't use all that in a horn cab, but it does lend itself to a higher voltage displacement limit...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#7 Post by Bruce Weldy » Tue May 15, 2018 10:43 pm

Grant Bunter wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:52 pm

Mind you, an 8 x 4 sheet cut in half lengthways will give you cabs around 23 15/16" wide,
Actually, the cab is just shy of 25 inches.....you've got 1/2 inch on each side of the interior panel width.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Grant Bunter
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Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#8 Post by Grant Bunter » Wed May 16, 2018 4:12 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:43 pm
Grant Bunter wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:52 pm

Mind you, an 8 x 4 sheet cut in half lengthways will give you cabs around 23 15/16" wide,
Actually, the cab is just shy of 25 inches.....you've got 1/2 inch on each side of the interior panel width.
:slap: :slap: doh, should have said panels not cabs. Thanks for picking up my mistake Bruce...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6854
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#9 Post by Bruce Weldy » Wed May 16, 2018 8:24 am

Grant Bunter wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:12 am
Bruce Weldy wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:43 pm
Grant Bunter wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:52 pm

Mind you, an 8 x 4 sheet cut in half lengthways will give you cabs around 23 15/16" wide,
Actually, the cab is just shy of 25 inches.....you've got 1/2 inch on each side of the interior panel width.
:slap: :slap: doh, should have said panels not cabs. Thanks for picking up my mistake Bruce...
Bad enough that our wives correct us, but then to have someone half a world away.......geez. :mrgreen:

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

jeremydta
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:16 am

Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#10 Post by jeremydta » Fri May 25, 2018 9:04 am

ok thanks, so voltage seems to be the main determinant of SPL. 18 Sound has the highest, so it's the loudest. The site I have been looking at 18 sound only has the ?newer NLW9400 15 inch. specs are
Fs 42 (ideal 20-50)
Qts 0.26 (0.25 - 0.50
so it's within spec and has even higher capacity than the 9300, so it's the ideal driver? bit exxy at 300 pounds plus shipping to Australia though

Grant Bunter
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Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#11 Post by Grant Bunter » Fri May 25, 2018 2:55 pm

You did say in post 1 "money no object".

Add some more TS specs, see if Bill gives it the nod...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#12 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Fri May 25, 2018 3:11 pm

You can't compare one spec, you have to compare all of them. It only goes about 0.5dB louder than the 9300.

jeremydta
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:16 am

Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#13 Post by jeremydta » Sat May 26, 2018 6:53 pm

9300 is not available from the place I want to order from. Am I looking for advantages which arent really there? Should I just get the Kappalite 3015LF? This one is available from UK, and has slightly higher sensitivity, and power handling. it's the 18 sound NLW 9401. Doesnt seem to have cooling fins on the picture though?

GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS
Nominal Diameter 380mm (15 in)
Rated Impedance 8 ohms
AES Power 1200W
Program Power 2400W
Peak Power 7000W
Sensitivity 97,5 dB
Frequency Range 37 - 2300 Hz
Power Compression @ -10 dB 0,7 dB
Power Compression @ -3 dB 1,4 dB
Power Compression @ 0 dB 2,0 dB
Max Recomm. Frequency 500 Hz
Recomm. Enclosure Volume 60 ÷ 130 lt. (2,12 ÷ 4,59 cuft)
Minimum Impedance 7,2 ohms at 25°C
Max Peak To Peak Excursion 38 mm (1,53 in)
Voice Coil Diameter 100 mm (4 in)
Voice Coil Winding Material copper
Suspension Triple roll, Polycotton
Cone Straight ribbed, fiberglass reinforced water repellent treated paper

THIELE SMALL PARAMETERS
Fs 39 Hz
Re 5,2 ohms
Sd 0,09 sq.mt. (139,5 sq.in.)
Qms 4,13
Qes 0,28
Qts 0,26
Vas 134 lt (4,73 cuft)
Mms 140 gr (0,31 lb)
BL 25,4 Tm
Linear Mathematical Xmax ±10 mm (±0,39 in)
Le (1kHz) 1,9 mH
Ref. Efficiency 1W@1m (half space) 96,7 dB

MOUNTING INFORMATIONS
Overall diameter 393 mm (15,47 in)
N. of mounting holes 8
Mounting holes diameter 7,15 mm (0,28 in)
Bolt circle diameter 371 mm (14.6 in)
Front mount baffle cutout diameter 354 mm (13.93 in)
Rear mount baffle cutout diameter 360 mm (14.17 in)
Total depth 180 mm (7.13 in)
Flange and gasket thickness 12,5 mm (0.49 in)
Net weight 7,6 kg (16.78 lb)
Shipping weight 8,2 kg (18.96 lb)
CardBoard Packaging dimensions 405x405x214 mm (15,94x15.94x8,43 in)

Grant Bunter
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Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#14 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat May 26, 2018 10:20 pm

jeremydta wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 6:53 pm
9300 is not available from the place I want to order from. Am I looking for advantages which arent really there? Should I just get the Kappalite 3015LF?
If you go the 3015lf route, you reduce maximum voltage by 20V to 60V IIRC.

The 15 NLW 9300 is still listed on 18 sounds site.
Have you asked the retailer you're looking at if they can get them in?

Have you looked elsewhere to purchase?
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans. 2 more under way with CD horn
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

jeremydta
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:16 am

Re: Newbie First Build advice - from Perth, Australia

#15 Post by jeremydta » Tue May 29, 2018 5:11 pm

ok thanks Grant, I have asked about the 9300, even though it is listed as out of stock. I have contacted quite a few dealers and only one has replied. There are none in Australia. They have the 9401 in stock, and I am waiting to hear if the 9300 is coming back into stock. Is the 9401 suitable (specs listed above), it seems better than the 9300?

thanks

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