Midbass Reinforcement

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titobrown
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Midbass Reinforcement

#1 Post by titobrown » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:00 pm

Hi,

I'm currently running 2x DR250s and 4x Single LAB12 Tuba 60s.

Overall it sounds great and while I definitely need more volume moving forward the general sound and audience feedback has been great. The only negative comments I do get every once in a while is that the system is lacking "punchyness" or "midbass".

I've talked to another person locally who has a Tuba 60 based system and heard similar comments.

Do other people get these comments?

How do you address this? Is my EQ wrong? More Tubas? Should I get a separate set of cabs to deal with the midbass range?

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#2 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:28 pm

What most call punch is usually distortion. Direct radiator subs produce it in gobs, folded horn subs have almost unmeasurably low levels of THD. Those not used to hearing really clean sound sometimes need some time to get used to it.

Grant Bunter
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#3 Post by Grant Bunter » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:36 pm

It's not uncommon for such comments, particularly with EDM and electronica genres.
Horn subs naturally filter the harmonics which you get when using direct radiator subs, which is what makes it appear to lack mid bass (in comparison).
This generally leads to horn subs being described as "smooth" and "clean" (in comparison to direct radiators).

Are you room tuning your EQ every time you set up?
Every room is different, so if no, then you need to. Auto EQing should sort out room response and help with the perceived deficits.

When it comes to mid bass, you could bump EQ at the relevant frequencies, but doing so is somewhat global, and as such, make, say, vocals, a problem.

If the bass or kick drum fundamental frequency is say 60Hz, then you would need to bump 120Hz (first harmonic) and maybe 240Hz (second harmonic). Oddly enough, I routinely set 250Hz to around -2dB.
It's a "mud" frequency (along with 400Hz).

Speaking of kick drum, find the fundamental frequency, and get it above 110dB for sternum bruising chest thump. You might like to tweak somewhere between 3-4K for greater bass drum definition too.

Lots of people seem to want to use mid bass reinforcement in EDM. They do so by using what is generically called "kick bins". It adds complexity to the setup, more gear to build, buy and haul, more pack space. You can't use kicks bins in the same band pass as your subs or tops/mains, as that introduces phase response issues between all those cabs.

I'd play around with EQ.
Also consider increasing the overall gain of the subs. But be aware, if you do this, you move the acoustical crossover point of your system.

Tell us everything you are currently doing. Crossover points, what your EQ settings are, signal chain etc etc, and lets see if something pops up...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

CoronaOperator
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#4 Post by CoronaOperator » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:33 pm

Another thing to be aware of is the phase between your tops and subs. If they are not lined up there will be a hole right around the crossover frequency.

You can do a quick polarity swap of the subs in the driverack and listen for the best response.

If you have delay available to you you can swap the polarity of the subs, play a 100hz tone, adjust delay (usually the tops) until you hear maximum cancellation, a phone app works good for this, then when you get maximum cancellation in the listening area, flip the polarity of the subs again for maximum summation.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

ACUA
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#5 Post by ACUA » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:47 pm

I have 4 tuba 45s 24" with single lab12 drivers, it is my experience that those subs coupled together as a tool from an engineering stand point for cost to acquire, the efficiency and frequency coverage is the best I have ever seen. It is my experience that if something is lacking in the mix it is the setup location/placement of the equipment and the application of processing aka time alignment filtering or crossover arrangement, eq, etc!!! Based upon the equipment you have, those from my perspective are some great tools but they need dialed in per venue or per situation! Please don't take this the wrong way I am just supporting the product and voicing my personal findings!

ACUA
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#6 Post by ACUA » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:04 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:What most call punch is usually distortion. Direct radiator subs produce it in gobs, folded horn subs have almost unmeasurably low levels of THD. Those not used to hearing really clean sound sometimes need some time to get used to it.
I must admit I personally agree that running these tuba cabs I tend to lack that aggressive punch that you speak of at least to some extent, I also know that the cleaner the system is the lower the perceived loudness seems to be. There is an interesting cooralation in the pro sound industry with the perception of energy and loud and the use of compression and or distortion as a way to generate the perception to the audience as energy. It bothers me how sound quality is actively compromised to be louder because the unknowing crowd perceives it as more energy bla bla bla, but the reality is that the cleaner sound that Bill is speaking of is the result of the gear and I like the sound it's more pure. I think that people fall away from here mistaking the distortion of direct radiators for being better! :loler:

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#7 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:26 pm

Good sound, like good beer and Scotch, is an acquired taste. You can't use Old Milwaukee and Old Smuggler as benchmarks, nor direct radiating subs driven past x-max.

88h88
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#8 Post by 88h88 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:35 am

I had my 2x T60s and 2x OT12s running at 116db measured and a friend who's a drummer said it wasn't loud enough. :mrgreen:
4xOT12s, 2xT39s@22", TTLS@18", 2xT60@18"

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#9 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:47 am

It's loud enough to make you deaf with extended exposure. He's probably already suffered major hearing loss, and that's why 116dB isn't enough for him anymore.

88h88
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#10 Post by 88h88 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:32 am

Yeah that's what I said to him and pointed at the measurement mic sat at the back of the room and the numbers showing on the DEQ. He still felt it could be louder. Drums are dangerous!
4xOT12s, 2xT39s@22", TTLS@18", 2xT60@18"

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DJPhatman
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Re: Midbass Reinforcement

#11 Post by DJPhatman » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:53 pm

88h88 wrote:Drumers are dangerous!
There 'ya go, mate! Fixed 'er up for 'ya!

:lol: :shock: :loler: :hyper: :cowboy: :fruit: :mrgreen:
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

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