T48 drivers 2022

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Camillo
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T48 drivers 2022

#1 Post by Camillo » Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:01 am

Did i miss something, buying this lavoce waf.154.00? The only thing in stock i found :)
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/LaVoce/WAF154.00

Fs:38
Qts:0.29 (using reduced chamber?)
Xmax:12.1mm
Vd:1004cm3

96dB
1500w RMS
8 Ohm

What to expect from this driver and what minimum wattage on amp should i have? (minimum for usage without risking to blow it because of voltage swing(?) , not playing it at its fullest capacity)

Also, minimum when bridging, i red that one shouldnt bridge if one mustn't. So with this element, when to bridge? :)

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Seth
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#2 Post by Seth » Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:52 am

Sweet :thumbsup:

Just a pre warning... I misspelled LaVoce as lavoice in a couple of these. I'm not going to take the time to change it. Is what it is.

Anyway, I guess we'll pick up where we left off...
Previous discussion wrote:...that driver will be displacement limited to 95 volts. Using the equation V × V ÷ Ω = Watts, you'll need an amplifier capable of at least 1100 honest watts per channel.


So, what to expect? Well, the chamber reducer is a good call. It's typically used for drivers with Fs lower than 32Hz. But, I went ahead and ran it, and there is a slight benefit in extension and sensitivity with the reduced chamber. It may be worth while, although clearly not enough of a difference to consider it mandatory.
Screenshot (191).png


Here it is vs. a 3015LF. To my eye, it looks to have an advantage in sensitivity below 50Hz. The tradeoff seems to be the LaVoce's bottom end rolls off about 5Hz higher than the 3015LF.
Lavoice vs 3015LF.png


Here it as against the LAB15, both in reduced chambers. Looks to be pretty close in the target frequency range.
lavoce vs LAB15.png


The peak output potential/operating headroom of the LaVoce is about 4dB more than either the LAB15 or 3015LF.

I had never heard of LaVoce before you mentioned it. I did a little reading up on them. They appear to be doing things right. They claim to use Klippel and other leading technologies in their product development and testing. Italian company since 2006, although their manufacturing is done in China.

It's not a product I would recommend, just because there's no track record of their use in horn loaded subs that I'm aware of (there may be?) Although, on the surface they appear to meet the requirements. I think it would be fantastic if you tried them out and let us know how well they hold up. (hopefully not holed up)


As far as the question "what's the BEST driver", it depends highly on what you value and what your requirements are. How would you potentially use them? Indoors/outdoors? How large of an area? Recorded content, live band, or both?

Personally, I'm a fan of lower power and more cabs whenever I can. Not to say you couldn't do the same with those drivers too.

Anyway, those are my findings and thoughts. I'm completely open to questions, comments, and corrections.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Camillo
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#3 Post by Camillo » Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:04 pm

Such a guru you are! I've read that using it as a sub i shouldnt go above 120 hz, am i wrong or from your resp. would i be able to use it up to 200 or so to support tops? My goal was only to try to build a horn and The lavoce was thw fastest i could get. I Will use itfor live-music 150 People inside mostly. Later on i might build more..

Should have and with lower watts since my amps are weaker:) im a newbie and afraid i'll blow something using too weak amp but i'll probably not run it as loud as I could:)

mixing elements and v-coupling? Since im on a budget and this driver i bought raised 40% in price the week after i bought it im looking for cheaper alternatives when i Will build a second cab and wonder if it is bad to mix :)

Also, bridging? I have a work zenith AB 1300 amp, it gives 1000w bridged in 8ohm..

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#4 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:17 pm

You shouldn't run tops from 200Hz, because that forces the subs to operate up into the directionally locatable frequencies.
im a newbie and afraid i'll blow something using too weak amp
That's the myth of underpowering. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1886
Also, bridging?
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19292

While you're at it spend a day or so here: viewforum.php?f=10

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Seth
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#5 Post by Seth » Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:26 pm

Camillo wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:04 pm
Such a guru you are!
Oh, no no no no no... I'm still very much a grasshopper. But, thank you. I know just about enough to see the scope and vastness of how much I don't know. I'll take the compliment though. :thumbsup:
I've read that using it as a sub i shouldnt go above 120 hz, am i wrong or from your resp. would i be able to use it up to 200 or so to support tops?
Bill is right. In most venues the optimum placement for a subwoofer is off to one side or the other, pushed back into a corner or wall loaded. The frequencies that subs are used for are non locatable. You can hear them, but you can't tell where the subs are or where the sound is coming from. So, the sub wont sound like it's in the corner, even though it actually is in the corner. With your eye's closed, if you can tell where a subwoofer is in a room, it's either crossed over too high or (more times than not) it's undesirable harmonics or distortion you're hearing in the frequency range that we're capable of locating. Well designed horn loaded subs don't typically have that issue.

mixing elements and v-coupling? Since im on a budget and this driver i bought raised 40% in price the week after i bought it im looking for cheaper alternatives when i Will build a second cab and wonder if it is bad to mix :)
Build your cab as wide as you're able to transport. If you can transport a full 36" wide T48, build a 36" T48. Following the placement rules, you may find a 2nd cab is unnecessary for an indoor venue of 150. Although, more is nearly never a bad thing. While obviously not optimal, I don't think you'd have any trouble mixing drivers. Could be some minor phase differences, but not likely enough to do more bad than good.
Also, bridging? I have a work zenith AB 1300 amp, it gives 1000w bridged in 8ohm..
That amp should work well bridged in this application. However, you absolutely need to get a signal processor with a brick wall limiter you can set to keep your driver safe. Behringer DCX2496, dbx Driverack, Ashly Protea... something along those lines. Lately, the Driverack has been the go-to recommendation and reportedly they're fairly easy to find secondhand for less than $200. Beyond protecting your drivers, these units have crossovers, EQ, and a bunch of other useful audio tools incorporated in them and are a fantastic value.

What part of the planet are you from Camillo? Oh, and what are you using for tops?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Camillo
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#6 Post by Camillo » Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:09 am

Ah, i see! So when not bridging i reduce the risk of blowing the driver nevertheless, but since the venue is small and The amp weaker i might bridge and not run it on full power 🤔 if i'm guessing right, all depending of how Hard i'll run it?

The tops i use are old jbl's, also the reason i got interested in horns. Two martin 115 with jbl e-130(?) in and four midhorns with jbl e-120 and two jbl tweeter 2441. Crossover is a peavey pc4xl and I also have a behringer ultra curve pro 8024. Old stuff but perhaps i can limit with them as soon as I have red more and know how to:) and I still dont know if i'll try to run it fourways or if i'll use the sub for some wharfedale tops..

Sweden! South of it

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Seth
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#7 Post by Seth » Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:01 pm

Bridging an amp isn't really that big of a deal. It doubles voltage output which quadruples the power value. As long as the resultant voltage is relatively close to your intended value and is appropriately limited, there's no issue. And there's no issue with having too little power. That becomes an issue when trying to use more than you have available.

You can bridge your amp and you can run it up to full power. BUT, you should really have a Brickwall Limiter. None of the units you've listed have that capability. Sell them all and get yourself a secondhand dbx Driverack which will take care of all the duties and give you your needed limiter.

That's certainly some cool old vintage stuff you've got there. Is it your primary interest to embrace the vintage stuff or are you more interested in having a system that functions well?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Camillo
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:02 pm

Re: T48 drivers 2022

#8 Post by Camillo » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:07 am

Ah, i see! Thank you! I Will check that dbx then but i'll still need the crossover for the whole system i guess.. Since i might get a new amp, are there amps, with an equal to the dbx driverack, limiter integrated?

Well, i didnt get them because i was interested in vintage, they made me that way and I dont want to get rid of them.. Haha
But i am looking a little bit at Bills other plans to see if i find something there that fits better. Perhaps using the old system outside and a smaller one inside or build something bigger for outdoor use and get something smaller inside permanent. If you have any recommendations please feel free to send:) camillopatron@gmail.com

Bruce Weldy
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#9 Post by Bruce Weldy » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:34 am

Camillo wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:07 am
Ah, i see! Thank you! I Will check that dbx then but i'll still need the crossover for the whole system i guess.. Since i might get a new amp, are there amps, with an equal to the dbx driverack, limiter integrated?
No, you don't need the crossover if you get a Driverack. It has the crossover, limiting, EQ, and more all in 1 rack space. There are amps with proper limiting, crossovers, and EQ - but they are very expensive. Cheaper Amps that say they have a built in limiter WILL NOT protect your subs. Those limiters protect the amp from thermal breakdown.

Stick with cheaper amps and a driverack.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#10 Post by howiez » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:30 pm

Camillo wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:07 am
Ah, i see! Thank you! I Will check that dbx then but i'll still need the crossover for the whole system i guess.. Since i might get a new amp, are there amps, with an equal to the dbx driverack, limiter integrated?

But i am looking a little bit at Bills other plans to see if i find something there that fits better.
I'm new to this game as well. Built a few of Bill's designs so far, loved every one.

I picked up a DBX Driverack PA2 mint/like new from the used board here, from another forum member. That was at the recommendation of this group and all their wonderful advice. It was daunting at first, but they are slowly walking me through setup, and they are feature packed! My system rocks, and I've zero fear of blowing anything up after some learning here.

As for recommendations, I'm sure many will chime in. It depends on what you want to do I guess. I built a pair of DR200's with a budget driver, just for something to try. They turned out so fantastic, i'm thinking of building some DR250 or DR280s!

Poke around, read lots of posts and don't be afraid to ask questions!

Camillo
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#11 Post by Camillo » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:26 am

Hi! Lucky you! Here it is impossible to get a hold of a pa2 in any time soon, new or used but i picked up a dbx 260. It does the job i guess? 70 page manual and a new world to open.. My thought is to run 1500hz/250/120 in a four way, making the subs mono and tops stereo. Any recommendations or video link how to set the limiter and compressor on the 260?:)
Will the 260 do the same job as pa2?

Bruce Weldy
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#12 Post by Bruce Weldy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:27 am

Camillo wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:26 am
Hi! Lucky you! Here it is impossible to get a hold of a pa2 in any time soon, new or used but i picked up a dbx 260. It does the job i guess? 70 page manual and a new world to open.. My thought is to run 1500hz/250/120 in a four way, making the subs mono and tops stereo. Any recommendations or video link how to set the limiter and compressor on the 260?:)
Will the 260 do the same job as pa2?
If you can send it back....do it. The 260 is an old model that is hard to program from the front panel. There's is a computer interface that's easier, but you have to have a special cable and even that has to be the right brand of it won't work. I used one of those on an install a while back and even after years of using driveracks, I had to call customer support to finally get it right.

As far a a 4 way system...it's really unnecessary. Tops have no problem going down to 100hz and subs can handle up to that. So, why add additional processing, amps, phase problems, etc. Remember.....just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Camillo
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:02 pm

Re: T48 drivers 2022

#13 Post by Camillo » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:30 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:27 am
Camillo wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:26 am
Hi! Lucky you! Here it is impossible to get a hold of a pa2 in any time soon, new or used but i picked up a dbx 260. It does the job i guess? 70 page manual and a new world to open.. My thought is to run 1500hz/250/120 in a four way, making the subs mono and tops stereo. Any recommendations or video link how to set the limiter and compressor on the 260?:)
Will the 260 do the same job as pa2?
If you can send it back....do it. The 260 is an old model that is hard to program from the front panel. There's is a computer interface that's easier, but you have to have a special cable and even that has to be the right brand of it won't work. I used one of those on an install a while back and even after years of using driveracks, I had to call customer support to finally get it right.

As far a a 4 way system...it's really unnecessary. Tops have no problem going down to 100hz and subs can handle up to that. So, why add additional processing, amps, phase problems, etc. Remember.....just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I cant send it back.. Bought it second hand and its arriving tomorrow.. So.. Should i skip the martin115? Cause they are the ones i use between 40hz and 250.. Or should i run them up to 120hz together with the t48?

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#14 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:04 am

Skip the Martin 115 entirely. You can't run them with the T48s. That's a recipe for disaster. Run your T48s to 100-120Hz, run your tops from there on up. If your tops won't reach 100-120Hz you need better tops. I'm thinking that's a safe bet, since the E120 is a fifty year old design. I doubt if whatever cabs you have them in are worth keeping as well.

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Re: T48 drivers 2022

#15 Post by Camillo » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:13 pm

Thank you! I changed the elements in the midhorn to a copy of eminence kappa pro 12a. I know u said one should buy elements for your cabinets and not the reverse but i already had them so if you want to, please tell me if your cabinets that suits them as tops..

12" p. Audio bm-12w with similar specs to kappa pro 12a:
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/Emin ... PA_PRO-12A

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