Another budget driver option?

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Seth
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Another budget driver option?

#1 Post by Seth » Mon May 02, 2022 6:24 pm

I don't recall hearing of the company prior to the past year or so. I've no idea if they're up to pro standards when it comes to construction and reliability, but the specs are within range for all the Titans and Tubas that can use a 12" driver.

GRS 12PT-8 Sales Page
GRS 12PT-8 Spec Sheet

It has more Vd per dollar than any other option I've seen. For comparison, the MCM 55-2421 8" driver that's typically used in the AutoTuba, TableTuba, and T24 used to be the best Vd/$ value at 5.6cc/$. The 3015LF comes in at 3.5cc/$, which is about as good as it gets out of the Eminence lineup. At $50, this GRS driver demolishes both of those, coming in at 7.2cc/$



In the back of my mind I have this idea that it would be a fun experiment to see how inexpensively a complete PA system could be made for, utilizing Bills designs. Then do a head to head comparison with common rental gear (probably QSC "K" series equipment), see how everything stacks up to each other, and do a fairly thorough cost and performance analysis.

Giggling a little inside, knowing that the driver cost for 4 T39's could potentially be less than $200 total.


Anyway... any feedback on this option? Have any of you guys had any experience with the company? Is it one that's been around and I just never heard of it?



PS... ACUA, Vd of 2 MCM's is 334cc, the GRS 12PT-8 is 361cc. So, it's an even more cost effective solution than the MCM. Although, I still like and prefer the cool factor of using the 8's in your project.
Last edited by Seth on Tue May 03, 2022 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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J_Dunavin
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Re: Another budget driver option?

#2 Post by J_Dunavin » Mon May 02, 2022 8:02 pm

Heck ya! That would be fun project for sure!
Do they make a comparable driver for a DR200?
Now we have to go shopping, and find a good deal on some amps to go along with the set up.
2 - OTop8
2 - T39
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

ACUA
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Re: Another budget driver option?

#3 Post by ACUA » Mon May 02, 2022 9:36 pm

GRS has been on parts express since I discovered it 12ish years ago. They are as far as I know only one notch better a product than Pyle. I have owned a few of their cheap drivers with success but they are not as nice as Dayton equipment my experience. I bet that that 12” driver would hold up as well as the MCM8” drivers. I already bought enough 8”s to build a quad set so I am good on drivers for now but next time it may be a good idea.

I think that GRS stands for great replacement speakers, as simple as that.
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Seth
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Re: Another budget driver option?

#4 Post by Seth » Tue May 03, 2022 12:44 am

J_Dunavin wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 8:02 pm
Heck ya! That would be fun project for sure!
Do they make a comparable driver for a DR200?
As you well know, the DR200 is a super inexpensive build when built per the plans with the recommended budget driver, the Beta 8a. Built as a budget cab, with the 8 element flat piezo array and no added extras they can usually be done for under $200 per cab. Roughly $100ish for the cab, crossover components, and tweeters... plus mid driver cost.

That said, HowieZ just finished a pair of DR200's that he fitted with GRS 8PT-8, a $23 driver, where the Beta 8a is $65 (well... it was. Looks like prices are going up). Here's his build thread, HowieZ DR200 build

Anyway, he says he likes them so far. But, here's what Bill had to say about the option...
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:46 pm
There are two concerns with the GRS 8PT-8. One is the high Qts, which will result in less sensitivity than the Beta 8. The other is the lack of rising response in the mids, so the midrange response won't be as good. It still should work pretty well with sufficient EQ.
To add to that, the plans state that Beta 8a is down a dB or two sensitivity from the foremost recommended driver, the Delta Pro 8. Soooooooo... I'm not sure I would really consider the GRS 8PT-8 recommendation worthy. I'm definitely interested how it would measure up in real world performance, once EQ'd and all though. If I ever get around to assembling my DR200's, it's certainly cheap enough to toss one in a cab and see what there is to see.



Now we have to go shopping, and find a good deal on some amps to go along with the set up.
I half way wonder if a single, bottom of the barrel, inuke 1000 DSP would be enough to outperform a pair of QSC K12.2's and QSC KS118's with a pair of DR200's and 2 v-plated T39's. That would certainly make a statement if it were enough. Even if it were close enough to call it even... a $1000, 1000 "watt" (advertised watts) system compared to a $6000, 11,200 "watt" (advertised watts) system. With advertised numbers thrown around like that, it sounds unlikely. But, in reality, after crunching real numbers I think it would be a pretty close comparison.
Last edited by Seth on Tue May 03, 2022 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Another budget driver option?

#5 Post by Seth » Tue May 03, 2022 1:15 am

ACUA wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 9:36 pm
GRS has been on parts express since I discovered it 12ish years ago. They are as far as I know only one notch better a product than Pyle. I have owned a few of their cheap drivers with success but they are not as nice as Dayton equipment my experience. I bet that that 12” driver would hold up as well as the MCM8” drivers. I already bought enough 8”s to build a quad set so I am good on drivers for now but next time it may be a good idea.

I think that GRS stands for great replacement speakers, as simple as that.
After I posted that, I remembered that you had already ordered all the drivers for your project. Oh well.

They've been around way longer than I thought. Guess I've always overlooked them, along with the Pyle's.

Not gonna. But, at this price, I almost wanna have one sent to you and have you try it out in one of your 12" T45's.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: Another budget driver option?

#6 Post by ACUA » Tue May 03, 2022 8:53 am

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0AVS

I have one of these battery powered, Bluetooth speakers. It has been great, I have had to replace the battery a few times over the past years but it’s a common 12v battery and this thing has worked great otherwise. I have half a mind to build a single Dr200 cab with the intention to integrate the amp board from this unit to it. Perhaps a jack10 or something would be better.
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Seth
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Re: Another budget driver option?

#7 Post by Seth » Tue May 03, 2022 11:55 am

ACUA wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 8:53 am
https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0AVS

I have one of these battery powered, Bluetooth speakers. It has been great, I have had to replace the battery a few times over the past years but it’s a common 12v battery and this thing has worked great otherwise. I have half a mind to build a single Dr200 cab with the intention to integrate the amp board from this unit to it. Perhaps a jack10 or something would be better.
J10 Lite would be slick :thumbsup:
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Strange Kevin
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Re: Another budget driver option?

#8 Post by Strange Kevin » Tue May 03, 2022 12:09 pm

An Omni tall boy would also make a great BBQ bluetooth party speaker. I've been looking for a used/open box version of the Behringer for the same thing! :)

Also, on Seth's original question,
The David Plans mention a GRS speaker as a budget option for the 4" mid drivers.
Authorized Builder - Phoenix AZ.
Main Rig - 6 DR200s - 6 T48s (30")
SLA Pros for the smaller stuff.

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Seth
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Re: Another budget driver option?

#9 Post by Seth » Tue May 03, 2022 1:09 pm

My curiosity flourished a little bit last night and I looked to see if GRS had a 15" that suited the required specs. As I suspected, 15PT-8. Specs are suitable for Titan 48 and at $60, it's the new Vd/$ champion. 10.8cc per dollar.

Hmmm... is there a 10? Indeed there is, you guessed it; 10PT-8. However, the Vas is less than specified for use in a T45. All the other Titans and Tubas that can use a 10" driver do not list a Vas requirement. Vd/$$ is pretty good too, at 9.1cc per dollar, putting it in second place in displacement value.

I'm a little surprised that, to my recollection, none of these has popped up in "can I use this driver" threads. Even though they're not the tippy top of output potential, they may be a great place to start for someone on a really tight budget. Young bands, new DJ business, married with kiddo's and wants a kick ass party system, etc. I know "buy once, cry once" rhymes and is a cute little saying that rolls off the tongue as cash is rolling out of the wallet. But, more times than not, the reality seems to be that we start where we can start and upgrade as we go through life.

I'm really very curious about the potential of these drivers. On the surface they seem to be on the friendly side of the 80/20 rule. But, can they standup to the pressures of horn loading and the abuse of regular gigging? Hmmm.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: Another budget driver option?

#10 Post by ACUA » Tue May 03, 2022 4:28 pm

To me, for the cost, it would be a fine path to purchase and use those cheap GRS drivers if there is a respectable high end driver that can be swapped in in the event that the cheap driver proves sub par. Many people want to stair step into the business and if you can get into gigging on cheap drivers and plan to upgrade as funds roll in I say this opinion should work. Yes it would suck to ruin an event half way through by blowing your subwoofer but what are you going to do!

I get that we should be supporting quality made maybe even American made products but if it comes down to that or nothing, well nothing sucks. I choose option C, what ever cheap gear I can afford and do the best I can with what I got.
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Re: Another budget driver option?

#11 Post by Seth » Tue May 03, 2022 6:48 pm

It would completely make sense to start with a couple, and with the appropriate highpass and limiter set, flog the piss out of them, push their limits, and see if they could be intentionally damaged. At $50-60ea, a destructive test would completely be worth the cost if the intention is to potentially use them for semi-professional gigging.. I'm not too worried about the motor assembly. It's the integrity of cone composition that I'd expect to be proven.

In Hornresp, modeling the 12 in a T39 and the 15in a T48, both show to be 1-2dB less sensitive compared to the 3012LF and 3015LF. And they seem to be able to take about 40 volts with a 40Hz highpass. So, peak output may be as much as 5-6dB less than that of the premium drivers. Giving good reason to upgrade at some point.

However, to put that into perspective; With a sensitivity of 1dB less than a 36" 3015LF loaded T48, a pair of them, v-plated, on 40volts (200 watts each, 400 total) would still outrun the average pair of ported 18's with 1500 watts each/3000w total. So, they'd still be a very potent package, even with the 5-6dB handicap in maximum output potential when compared to loading the cabs with a 3015LF. That's enough output that many may not ever upgrade if long term reliability is sufficient.

GREAT! (grumble grumble) Now I wanna build a pair of T48's!
Just have to add it to the long list of future builds. Looks like it will take 5 sheets.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: Another budget driver option?

#12 Post by Tom Smit » Tue May 03, 2022 9:46 pm

Seth wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:09 pm
I'm really very curious about the potential of these drivers. On the surface they seem to be on the friendly side of the 80/20 ru, le. But, can they standup to the pressures of horn loading and the abuse of regular gigging? Hmmm.
That would be my concern, too! I can see it where those who have experience would be able to trial these low-priced drivers because they would go into the project with the understanding that the drivers would be sub-par(oops, a pun, LOL). Newbies, on the other hand, might get terribly disappointed that it didn't last if they blew a driver or the performance wasn't as they had hoped for, and then, potentially, the BFM brand gets dissed by the newbie or the reader of the thread.
TomS

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Re: Another budget driver option?

#13 Post by Seth » Wed May 04, 2022 2:11 am

Indeed. While there's no way to completely eliminate grumpy, mud slinging, ignorant, trollish behavior on the internet... you're right and I should take a little initiative to inform those who may not be aware...

Let this be notice to any and all reading this thread; any deviation from the methods, dimensions, materials, or drivers called for in the plans could have a negative effect on the sound quality, durability, and overall performance of the cab you intend to build. If it's imperative that you achieve the advertised results and nothing more or less, take your time, follow the plans to a "T", and use the recommended drivers.

I think I'll likely end up ordering one of the 12's, put it in the 16" T39 and take it for a test spin sometime this year. Take one for the team, so to speak. Just feels like it's calling out to me. Matter of fact, I should do measured tests for all the 12's I have. The T39's currently loaded with a 3012LF. But, I also have Delta 12LFA's and S2012's on the shelf. Adding a GRS 12PT-8 to the mix would be interesting. I'm curious how it's performance will rank among the other drivers. Maybe send it to ACUA to test in his T45's when I'm through with it (assuming it survives :evil: ) Oh!, I want to test the MCM 8" in the T39 too.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: Another budget driver option?

#14 Post by Tom Smit » Wed May 04, 2022 9:58 pm

Looking forward to your tests Seth! I am sure that you will be making it as fair as you can with the testing.
TomS

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Re: Another budget driver option?

#15 Post by howiez » Sat May 07, 2022 7:45 am

Seth wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 6:24 pm
I don't recall hearing of the company prior to the past year or so. I've no idea if they're up to pro standards when it comes to construction and reliability, but the specs are within range for all the Titans and Tubas that can use a 12" driver.

GRS 12PT-8 Sales Page
GRS 12PT-8 Spec Sheet
Seth, I think I mentioned somewhere there is also a Dayton 8" like the GRS i put in my DR's. Looking at any catalog pictures, i'd swear they are the same driver, different badge. I wonder if your GRS12PT-8-12 is made by Dayton, or if Dayton has a 12 that is made by GRS... I've not dug in that far, but it always seems like one manufacturer makes something and several companies put their sticker on it.

That being said, the Dayton was $40ish (vs $22) and I feel it had the rising midrange response Bill asks for. That would be marketing BS, or better/worse measurement but who knows!

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