Mixing drivers and cab stacking

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sec_9
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:04 am

Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#1 Post by sec_9 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:36 pm

Hello

This is my first post here and excited to be here.
I just purchased a pair of used tuba 24 to be used in a small club space. Mainly they will be used for recorded music. The drivers that came with the pair are not as “standard” stated BP102’s in the manual. The upgrade is the eminence kappalite 3010LF
I’m searching high and low (UK) for a pair of kappalite 3010LF but can only find the one (I found out from a friend today that eminence stopped making them, so, great?)
My question is do I Try grab the 1 and mix the drivers with a BP 102 or just get a paair of the BP 102’s so they are at least matched?

Another question is that I only have a small amount of space to place them ( no wall behind them either) so can I stack them ok one on top of each other and if so in any combination?

Thanks in advance.

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6453
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#2 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:20 pm

Hello and welcome to the forum :)

Fear not.
The Kappalite 3010LF has been replaced by the KL3010LF, which you should be able to get somewhere.

Sorry, but a room has to have walls. If you want more output for free, create some space near a wall!
Stacking up a wall would be better than not using a wall at all. The mouth of the cabs must be within 2 feet of, and pointed at, the wall.
Read and learn and remember the sub placement sticky.

The BP102 and the 3010LF/KL3010LF will sound the same.
But they will have different voltage limits before you blow them up (the plans talk about this under "protecting your speakers").
You absolutely must have a brick wall limiter before the amp(s) to prevent this.

What are you using for a speaker management system?
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

sec_9
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:04 am

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#3 Post by sec_9 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:36 pm

Hi Grant

Thanks for the reply.
Regarding the wall situation, my original wall has been taken for table space due to COVID and no fun allowed. We are planning on boxing the area off so maybe I can drop in some blocks? I’ll have a think.
As for the drivers great stuff. I’ll have a dig around.
The space where the tubas are are running through a mono furman crossover until more funds can be procured.
My actual full system is a lot more complex. But I have that under control.

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6453
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#4 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:40 pm

sec_9 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:36 pm
The space where the tubas are are running through a mono furman crossover until more funds can be procured.
My actual full system is a lot more complex. But I have that under control.
Have you ever owned and ran horn loaded subs before?
They won't complain, they will just stop working...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

sec_9
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:04 am

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#5 Post by sec_9 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:05 pm

Like I say. My main setup is more complex but I really didn’t want to mention it in this thread but this system is a feed from the main room into a smaller room further along in the venue and running through dsp from there. The furman is just a last end control to blend the low / mid hi in the “tuba space”

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7208
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#6 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:23 pm

sec_9 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:05 pm
Like I say. My main setup is more complex but I really didn’t want to mention it in this thread but this system is a feed from the main room into a smaller room further along in the venue and running through dsp from there. The furman is just a last end control to blend the low / mid hi in the “tuba space”
The point Grant is trying to make is that without a limiter, you will most likely blow 'em up. You can't hear a horn farting out like a direct radiator, so there's no warning to turn it down....it's just gone. So, regardless of the layout of the system, unless you are running it way underpowered, you must have a limiter or risk blowing the drivers.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

sec_9
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:04 am

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#7 Post by sec_9 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:37 am

Oh no. I get the limiter situation as I’m aware that people using systems don’t know what red lights mean ;)
And yes. There’s brick wall limiters on my DSP


The Space with the tubas is more of a mingling space, not a heavy club.
But thanks

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6453
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#8 Post by Grant Bunter » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:58 am

Well if you can throw in a HP of 45Hz with your furman Xover would help in the short term.

Here’s the real issue with 3010LF’s vs BP’s.
The 3010LF’s will have a max output advantage of around +6dB over the BP’s. Meaning you might perhaps build an extra 4 BP loaded cabs, which, space wise, is not so hot.
So if you want to add more, find more 3010LF’s...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7208
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#9 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:19 am

sec_9 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:37 am
Oh no. I get the limiter situation as I’m aware that people using systems don’t know what red lights mean ;)
And yes. There’s brick wall limiters on my DSP


The Space with the tubas is more of a mingling space, not a heavy club.
But thanks
Great that you have limiters. But, you'll need to reset the limiter with a volt meter when you get the new drivers. And if you haven't done that process with the BP102s, you need to do that before someone pushes the fader up - and they will.

I may be wrong, but from your answers, it doesn't sound like you quite understand what we mean by limiting. If I'm wrong - I apoligize. But, if you didn't set the limiter with a volt meter on the output of your amp - then you don't have it limited properly. T'he fact that you bought these subs and you are new to the forum makes me think that you aren't aware of how to properly limit these subs.....if you don't have the plans, then you don't know what voltage they should be limited to - and you haven't asked.....thus, my concern.

Just trying to save your drivers.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

sec_9
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:04 am

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#10 Post by sec_9 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:21 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:19 am
Great that you have limiters. But, you'll need to reset the limiter with a volt meter when you get the new drivers. And if you haven't done that process with the BP102s, you need to do that before someone pushes the fader up - and they will.

I may be wrong, but from your answers, it doesn't sound like you quite understand what we mean by limiting. If I'm wrong - I apoligize. But, if you didn't set the limiter with a volt meter on the output of your amp - then you don't have it limited properly. T'he fact that you bought these subs and you are new to the forum makes me think that you aren't aware of how to properly limit these subs.....if you don't have the plans, then you don't know what voltage they should be limited to - and you haven't asked.....thus, my concern.

Just trying to save your drivers.
[/quote]


Ah. That I do not know. I come from a studio background and live not building and maintenance so apologies all round.
I take limiting to be limiting a signal from exceeding a pre set threshold.
I’m still going through the manual.

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7208
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#11 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:47 am

sec_9 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:21 am

I’m still going through the manual.
You should consider buying the plans for the T24. It will tell you a lot about what you have. It has the list of drivers and their voltage limits.

We can help you set the limiter properly. It won't be in any manual for your crossover (if that's the manual you are talking about). There is a process whereby you will use a test tone to drive the amplifier. Then you use your DSP (like a driverack, etc.) to clamp it down so that it cannot exceed the proper voltage that comes from the amp.

We're here to help. Tell us exactly what gear you have - make, model, etc. that is part of this system and we'll walk you through the process.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

sec_9
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:04 am

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#12 Post by sec_9 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:57 am

Thanks.
The venue is going through refurb atm so all the pa is away in an offiCe until I reinstall it. Once it’s in I’ll be doing a full reset

As for the manual I mean the T24. The plans came with the subs. :D

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7208
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Mixing drivers and cab stacking

#13 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:02 am

sec_9 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:57 am
Thanks.
The venue is going through refurb atm so all the pa is away in an offiCe until I reinstall it. Once it’s in I’ll be doing a full reset

As for the manual I mean the T24. The plans came with the subs. :D
Great! Read toward the end where it talks about setting voltage limits.....then get back to us when you are ready to fire 'em up.

What will you be using for a limiter?

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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