PA2 limiter setting question

Get the lowdown on the down low.
Message
Author
CoronaOperator
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#16 Post by CoronaOperator » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:24 am

I'll tell you what I think it means, it means their limiters have an attack time of around 50 ms before they kick in which is why when you slam the fader you get a momentarily 60-75 volt reading before it settles down to 50 v. Most people would consider this a flaw in the design but give this information to a marketing genius and you get a trademarked name called "peakplus" and "overshoot" and then they charge you more for it. Overshoot is fine for top boxes where x-max isn't a concern and its the rms thermal heating that kills drivers, but for subs it doesn't give you the control you really want. If they had the capability to do brickwall they would call it that. I hate dbx products, (overpriced, under engineered, confusing as hell to operate) however I do use the venue360 as I can control it via wifi remotely.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

SethRocksYou
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Contact:

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#17 Post by SethRocksYou » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:41 am

CoronaOperator wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:13 am
You tell us what peakplus means first, lol
Well, to me, all it means is; it's not a brick wall limiter.

The OP states that he's seeing upwards of 60 volts when he set the limiter for 50 volts on his PA2. The manuals for the PA2 and the Venue360 mention PeakPlus™

Bruce reports that his PA and PA+ produce results consistent with a brick wall limiter and the manual for those two units doesn't mention anything about PeakPlus™.

It sounded like you have knowlege that the PA and PA+ are not brick wall limiters. Is that the case or not?
Last edited by SethRocksYou on Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

SethRocksYou
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Contact:

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#18 Post by SethRocksYou » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:54 am

CoronaOperator wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:24 am
...however I do use the venue360 as I can control it via wifi remotely.
I saw that. I like that feature. Waaaaaay better than sitting on the floor fumbling through clumbsy controls and tiny screen.

Also, the Venue360 manual says you can turn PeakPlus™ off. Or, more acurately, choose between PeakPlus™ and PeakStopPlus™ (the answer to your previous question is in the first paragraph too). It looks like there's still some overshoot though (adjustable).
• PEAK STOP PLUS [OFF, ON]
Enables PeakStopPlus™ and changes the limiter from an RMS (Root Mean Squared), or averaging limiter, to a peak
limiter. The difference between these two types of limiters is in the signal that is being fed to the detection circuit
of the algorithm. The detector of an RMS limiter is “looking” at an average signal, while a peak limiter “looks” at the
instantaneous (peak) signal. An averaging limiter will be less responsive and will not actually limit every peak, where a
peak limiter will.

PeakStopPlus involves a two-stage process of dynamic limiting. The first stage of PeakStopPlus is the Instantaneous
Transient Clamp which clamps the signal with a soft logarithmic clamp function. This logarithmic function ensures that
the signal will not exceed the level set by the PeakStopPlus OVERSHOOT control by more than the overshoot amount,
and that it will not introduce harsh artifacts. The second stage is a unique program limiter featuring Intelligent Predictive
Limiting. Its function is to monitor the input signal and intelligently predict the amount of gain reduction needed to keep
the output signal below the ceiling set by the Instantaneous Transient Clamp. The OVERSHOOT parameter sets the
amount of overshoot for the Instantaneous Transient Clamp.

• OVERSHOOT [2dB - 6dB]
Sets the amount of transient overshoot allowed when PEAK STOP PLUS is turned on. Lowering this parameter will
provide additional protection, but may subtly affect the sound as transients become softened.
Last edited by SethRocksYou on Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#19 Post by CoronaOperator » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:15 pm

I have no experience with the pa or pa+, just the dr260, venue360 and dcx2496

peakstop plus is even more confusing than peakstop, now it will mess with my gain to keep the limiter from engaging aaaand I have to try and figure out how much overshoot I want over what I already told it to limit. Can it be even more confusing? Nothing here is a simple brickwall limiter. With the 3db overshoot I need to set my my amps at half power which costs me output in order to protect against over excursion. Just talking about dbx limiters gets me worked up. :cussing: I set a brickwall limiter in my ui-16 mixer and that works for me. I think the dbx limiters are more geared for compression drivers where overshoot is okay, it's the long term rms thermal heating you need to worry about.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

SethRocksYou
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Contact:

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#20 Post by SethRocksYou » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:33 pm

I hear ya. Someone over at dbx completely ignored the KISS principal.

Personally, I use the Behringer DCX2496

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#21 Post by CoronaOperator » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:51 pm

SethRocksYou wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:33 pm
Personally, I use the Behringer DCX2496
Very nice unit, very intuitive to figure out as well. I'm just waiting on a new power supply from Music Group to get mine back in service. That's their only weak part.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

SethRocksYou
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Contact:

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#22 Post by SethRocksYou » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:05 pm

I can't wait for them to come out with something app controlled. I'd prefer LAN/Wifi based but bluetooth would be fine too. I value my rack space and combining the DCX and DEQ features into one unit would be sweet too.

There has been some user created stuff for the DCX2496. I haven't tried any of it yet.



https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital ... drive.html

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#23 Post by CoronaOperator » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:19 pm

SethRocksYou wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:05 pm
I can't wait for them to come out with something app controlled. I'd prefer LAN/Wifi based but bluetooth would be fine too. I value my rack space and combining the DCX and DEQ features into one unit would be sweet too.
There is more than enough PEQ processing power in the DCX to ditch the DEQ, just make sure you have the latest update, the original firmware ran out of processing power pretty quick.
SethRocksYou wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:05 pm
There has been some user created stuff for the DCX2496. I haven't tried any of it yet.
That is very cool, thanks for the link. For me, I don't mind fiddling with the small on board screen, it's not being out front to hear what is going on that is the problem. It's the ears out front that need pleasing and you can't do that from the amp rack.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

SethRocksYou
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Contact:

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#24 Post by SethRocksYou » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:47 pm

CoronaOperator wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:19 pm
There is more than enough PEQ processing power in the DCX to ditch the DEQ, just make sure you have the latest update, the original firmware ran out of processing power pretty quick.
I'd miss the auto EQ feature a bit. Not that I can't just do it manually, it takes me at least 10 minutes to do what the auto EQ does in 1. Probably even longer for me on a parametric.

In all reality, if rack space became extremely scarce for whatever reason, there's enough signal processing power in my mixers (Behringer XR18 & Midas M32C) to (for the most part) fill in for both the DEQ and the DCX . Keeping the DEQ gives me auto EQ and keeping the DCX minimizes the use of mixer outputs to 1 or 2. I'd have to double up EQ settings to achieve a steep high pass for the subs, but creating effective crossover points would be pretty straight forward. I think

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6709
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#25 Post by Bruce Weldy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:05 pm

CoronaOperator wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:13 am
SethRocksYou wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:02 am

Are you saying that the PA and PA+ do, in fact, have dbx PeakPlus™ type limiters?
You tell us what peakplus means first, lol
Without spending time going through the manuals......here's my take. Peak plus is a term that Crown uses to tout the limiters on their amps - which of course mean nothing to us...we want to protect our subs, not the amps. Since dbx and Crown are both Harmon companies, I'm thinking that they brought the term over to the dbx side for marketing purposes.

Don't get too tied up in the minutiae. Either it limits the signal or it doesn't. Turn off the over easy and run it back thru it's paces.

Also, I noticed the OP said he was running a sweep - use a single frequency tone. I don't know if that could create an issue in trying to capture a good voltage reading or not, but it's not necessary - so don't do it.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

himhimself
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:34 pm
Location: Bloomington IN

Re: PA2 limiter setting question

#26 Post by himhimself » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:38 pm

As I stated in my original post, I do not have Overeasy enabled. I have the setting for as hard a knee as it can do, but I missed the part in the manual that talked about the 3db overshoot even with the hard setting, so will just back the limiter down a little bit more. We shall see how it works out on Friday. Probably will be asked to turn down anyway :bash:
2xT30 (20", 3012lf)
4xOtop Jarray

Post Reply