12 Titans, stacking question.

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AussieDoof
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#16 Post by AussieDoof » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:39 am

Hey all, Just a few Pics of "Serenity" in her current incarnation.
Stereo stack was to please promoters and was 17m apart cut at 40hz. I also think it looked very frickin cool, and we had more than enough bass for the 500+ punters, so no complaints. Was the 'biggest' sound yet. Filled a corridor easily 100+m deep and half that wide of chest thump. The tops sound amazing up at 2.5m too. Top box Splay was calculated at 22.5 degrees with each array slightly aimed in as width was unnecessary and most of my punters try to climb into the scaff.

New years, the 10 titan mono stack was waay easier, one big wall O sound.

Haven't gotten a chance to run all 12 in a mono bass stack yet, but keen to when a promoter can deal with the monster bass wall. If anyone has some good suggestions on how I can manage to get a wide bass envelope rather than a power corridor when stacking them all in a line horizontally let me know.

Hope you enjoy the 'rig porn'.

Reppin the BfM bass feels, rather proud of my baby really. Still on the hunt for more and bigger, maybe 16 or 20 ey?
Jez
Attachments
stereo stack copy.jpg
Aussie Day, 12 titan stereo stack.
kicks nbn 2 copy.jpg
Just for reference, many happy campers. 500+ punters.
one stack copy.jpg
The mighty V stack. Visually definitely turned some heads
New Years copy.jpg
New Years, ye Ol' wall O sound

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DJPhatman
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#17 Post by DJPhatman » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:03 pm

Good on ya, mate!

Nice to see you back. Really gotta do something about those tops, though. :wink: For the current tops, use them just like you did in the New Year pic, stacked on their side, until you can replace them with at least 4 DR250 or DR280. Splaying them is so wrong, in so many ways.


The 2 stacks, that's the way. As long as you get them more than 17.5m apart, and always run them in MONO. All receiving the same signal. Frequencies below 150Hz or so are omni-directional, meaning there is zero benefit to trying to run bass in stereo, and can actually cause problems. Make the next 4 36" (91.5cm) wide, to make maximum bass out of each cabinet.

And tell the promoters to piss off. They should do their job, and let you do yours. It's why you are there, right?
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

CoronaOperator
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#18 Post by CoronaOperator » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:33 pm

AussieDoof wrote:If anyone has some good suggestions on how I can manage to get a wide bass envelope rather than a power corridor when stacking them all in a line horizontally let me know.
You don't have to run power to all your decorations, the end ones are perfectly happy just sitting there looking pretty.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

David Raehn
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#19 Post by David Raehn » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:02 pm

With a little bit of delay, I think you can get to where you want to be:

www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?i=8913

Figure 15 on page 11.
Authorized Builder.

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AussieDoof
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Location: Perth Western Australia

Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#20 Post by AussieDoof » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:48 pm

Thanks Guys, :) Good to be back. Don't feel I have to experience to help others much, there are much more capable people on here, but at least you all may enjoy a bit of a chime in form time to time.

Yeah David, that's the only solution I have now, delay each mirrored pair after about 4.8m(?) wide.

Dj Phatman,
I never run bass in stereo signal, merely meant that I ran them physically stereo stacked.

Corona,
Believe it or not this is not just for show. I do almost exclusively outdoor heavy bass edm gigs. Every bit of rumble is needed. I admit that for current crowds: upto about 1200, I don't need more than 12, but when I do, I will. Been asked to quote for a gig this coming summer for 3000 ppl outdoors edm, and honestly I am not sure how many more 36" titans I will need and if I can even meet that demand. A few old-schoolers from over east have told me I should be able to do it comfortably, but they are coming form the "we ran AM15's for a couple of decades they can do it" camp, and are just working from a generic 15 folded horn understanding with no intimate knowledge of the titans. Suggestions? and how to stack them while not hiding stage behind 2.4m high wall? Delayed horizontal line is the only way I can see.

Part of the solution is to now build 36's dual loaded with the nlw9500's, but seriously afraid I will pull boxes apart... that pressure... Powwaa

*Side note
If anyone here needs a little more convincing not to mess with the plans... I in all my infinite wisdom changed a couple face plates on my 8th pair... was fine for a year odd till I coupled into a 10 box mono and blew the face plates clean off. I say 'off' but they were still 'on', and the glue had held, but it tore the ply layers apart. Damn I wish Birch wasn't $225 a sheet at that time, probs wouldn't have happened with that godsend of a building material.

CoronaOperator
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#21 Post by CoronaOperator » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:26 pm

AussieDoof wrote: Corona,
Believe it or not this is not just for show. I do almost exclusively outdoor heavy bass edm gigs. Every bit of rumble is needed.l
I do EDM too, I understand the need for bass. You wanted a solution to go wide and I gave you one, albeit a little tongue and cheek, although sometimes turning off speakers is a better solution to adding more as they don't always sum, they can fight each other as well. Audio is always a set of compromises and that damn physics gets in the way. For crowd sizes that big you probably have to split your stacks to cover the space, a mono stack to cover 3000 would be pretty intense anywhere within 30 feet of it.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

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AussieDoof
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Location: Perth Western Australia

Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#22 Post by AussieDoof » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:50 am

Ok cool. Yeah I got that it was tongue in cheek. Inflection can be lost in text format.

Yeah I totally agree with splitting it. Spent a while studying sub array placement with a bunch of pretty graphs :)

Was hoping for a little help with the Titans in particular.

Grant Bunter
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#23 Post by Grant Bunter » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:19 am

G'day mate!
Damn that all looks sooooo good.

I'm hoping Bill will chime in on this post.
Plenty of times in the past, he has said something like "you hit the law of diminishing returns at 16 cabs".
In other words, after 16 cabs, you don't get +6dB for each doubling of cabs. I don't know the value, but it reduces to being not worthwhile.

So, where can you you go to do a quote for 3000 people at a bush doof?
Well, my immediate thought was start adding delay stacks.

Each doubling of distance from 1 metre response in the subs will lose 6dB in output.
Chest thump from the kick needs to be a minimum of 110dB at the listening position.
That would = a minimum of 146dB at 1m to be 110 at 64m, or 152db to be 110 at 128m from the subs.
You might need even higher than that given you're trying to reproduce 30Hz.

Rather than trying to keep on raising the FOH level to unobtainable figures, delay stacks will beef up output to further distances.

The hitch?
Lots more building subs, more drivers, more amps, more tops, and the ability to delay by the correct amount. There's lot's of $ in all that...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Disco-inferno
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#24 Post by Disco-inferno » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:42 am

Very impressive stacks :shock: why did you high pass @ 40Hz? Most EDM has nice extension down to mid to low 30's and your system is definately capable of 35Hz with very high output.

In folded horns throat pressure can become an issue when you use multiples. Good thing you chose the NLW driver because drivers with lighter cones that large tend to break up at the least and worst case they will tear up completely because of the inmense pressure at the throat. This also causes the face plates to break when you use inferiour quality plywood.

Splitting stacks will help, and for the SPL at greater distances it won't matter because then the two stacks will still sum into one radiating plain although at the cost of a power alley close to the stacks.

As for the tops I agree with Phatman, nothing good comes from splaying. I wouldn't be surprised if a quad of DR280's (or 6 to 8 omnitop12's for that matter) would be louder and in the nearfield be much clearer with less interference issues. The size of events you're doing would surely justify investing in this.

Keep up the good work :clap:

Disco-inferno
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Location: Tilburg, Netherlands

Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#25 Post by Disco-inferno » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:10 am

Ps. We need more rigg porn like this :lol:

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#26 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:02 am

Grant Bunter wrote: In other words, after 16 cabs, you don't get +6dB for each doubling of cabs. I don't know the value, but it reduces to being not worthwhile.
3dB per doubling of cab count. When you get to that point you need delayed remotes placed well out in the listening area.

Grant Bunter
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#27 Post by Grant Bunter » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:42 am

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Grant Bunter wrote: In other words, after 16 cabs, you don't get +6dB for each doubling of cabs. I don't know the value, but it reduces to being not worthwhile.
3dB per doubling of cab count. When you get to that point you need delayed remotes placed well out in the listening area.
Thanks for that Bill!
As I suspected, in terms of effort, it's not worthwhile adding a few dB at FOH by doubling cab count.
Having said that, it would certainly be worthwhile in terms of doubling cab count, and using the additional new cabs for delay stacks, or as you call them, delayed remotes.

Hippie Kid, mate, there's a few thing to consider in that equation.
Subs Driver and cab build costs. Tops. I know you love your AM's but, I'm sure I'm not to far off the mark to say that sufficient to build delay stacks may be unobtainium. Perhaps, it's time to consider some of Bill's tops, like DR280's. I don't think, at sufficient distance, phase issues would be a problem, and it wouldn't hurt to look at some higher average SPL tops for the future. Sufficient delay may be a major issue. Check out the recommended amounts and the math to work it...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#28 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:50 am

AussieDoof wrote: for current crowds: upto about 1200, I don't need more than 12, but when I do, I will. Been asked to quote for a gig this coming summer for 3000 ppl outdoors edm, and honestly I am not sure how many more 36" titans I will need and if I can even meet that demand.
The difference in coverage for 3000 versus 1200 isn't that much, if any. To stay within 6dB of the current levels you can double the depth and width of the coverage area, and that's 4800 with the same per person area. Then consider that most of the additional audience area that matters will be in the width, not the depth, because those who want to be in the high energy zone will gravitate closer to the stage. The ones further away don't want to be in the high energy zone anyway.

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AussieDoof
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#29 Post by AussieDoof » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:33 am

pic of rig.jpg
Ahhh the Serenity (for any Aussies playing at home :D )
Hey Everyone.

Here's a lil more rig porn, just to get you all chiming in (hopefully) and coax a lil knowledge out.
I had to hear all 12 in a mono at least once. *insert maniacal laughter here* , and no flames on the kick bins boys, I don't usually bring them out, but this was my gig, so I-do-wha-I-waant :lol:

Following on from the conversation above; I bought another pair of AM's (8 now 8) ) , and have just bought the materials and ordered the drivers for (My last?) 4 Titans. I decided to build 600mm wide ones, so I will have 8 of each. Makes for 4 clean 4 packs of 2.4x1.5m subs, or a little shorter line, and easier transport ect. Bang for buck and weight and all that you guys mentioned 4 years ago. I have been looking further into sub alignment ect, and will need flexibility for stacking, and hence, it's time to upgrade my processor, and I'm looking at amps too.

I have been running with the DBX pa+ for four odd years, and have loved it, but I need more outs for delay and phase alignment of my sub rig (unless I buy plm's), but more on that later, I still want a new processor, amp presets with actual voltage limiting would be nice, though i do have a multimetre, so.. :P . Better over all control ect.
Any suggestions?
Probably looking up to around 1500 usd second hand on a processor, but looking at smaart ect, so an all-in price below that is preferred. Let me know if anything is exceptional, or capable for less in your opinions.

Amps I am looking at, Lab Gruppen fp and plm 10000q's. Powersoft k10's (non dsp), or potentially just another couple Lab gruppen fp 6400's.
People have also suggested Mc2 and speakerpower, but I am really limited buy the Aussie second hand market.

*Bill (and others)
With the 'Line' setups, individual subs and groups of 4 spread and delayed across the stage, do you have any ground work advice to help me as I tackle this? I know that with smaart or a similar speaker management system I will be able to work this with a bunch of mic work and delay and phase alignment, but any pointers (if any) that are not general knowledge and particular to the titans would be appreciated.

Thanks everyone. Will have a really nice pic of the follow-up of the last stereo stack in about a fortnight, as the same crew has booked me again with similar requests.

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Radian
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Re: 12 Titans, stacking question.

#30 Post by Radian » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:28 pm

The DBX 48xx series processors are worth a look in this regard.
Good food, good people, good times.

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