FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

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Askia
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FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#1 Post by Askia »

Dear forum members!
Many of you have probably met with this term, even with a cab which had this label. (Unfortunately, I haven't met with such personaly. )
These cabs are designed for those guitar and bass players, who use amp and cab modeling effects, so that they could set their sounds without the coloration of a normal bass or guitar cabinet they usually use

First, is ist possible to make a flat response full range cab without eq? Many modern active cabs have their DSP bulit in with eq and limiters, to help the cab sound full range and flat.
Second, are they really flat and full range, is it even possible to make a small portable cab sound like a P.A.?

I'm asking Mr. Bill Bitzmaurice, what he thinks about this subject, is it just an advertiment slogan, or possible to make, and if he ever wanted to design one?


CoronaOperator
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Re: FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#3 Post by CoronaOperator »

Askia wrote: First, is ist possible to make a flat response full range cab without eq?
Perhaps in anechoic chamber, indoors in a room that would only happen if the sound system was designed specifically for that space. Meaning a number of iterations of the design would have to be done for that specific room. Hifi systems strive to achieve that goal, in pro audio sensitivity (output) is the name of the game so eq is a necessary.
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6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
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Bruce Weldy
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Re: FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#4 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Askia wrote: These cabs are designed for those guitar and bass players, who use amp and cab modeling effects, so that they could set their sounds without the coloration of a normal bass or guitar cabinet they usually use
As one who has used guitar modelers and played both direct into the PA and through amps - you have to set your sound regardless of the box you are playing through. To say that a "flat" response is a good thing for a guitar player is just marketing hype.....all the great tones have never come from a flat box. Full range boxes come into play if you are planning to play electric and acoustic models through the box.....the high end is useful for the acoustic. And face it, no PA you ever play through is flat - because if it is, it sounds like crap.
First, is ist possible to make a flat response full range cab without eq? Many modern active cabs have their DSP bulit in with eq and limiters, to help the cab sound full range and flat.
Second, are they really flat and full range, is it even possible to make a small portable cab sound like a P.A.?
So, do you want a guitar cab that sounds like it's coming from a PA? Or, a PA cab that sounds like a guitar cab? There are a lot of portable (powered) cabs out there that need very little EQ to sound good, but to use one for guitar or bass use doesn't make a lot of sense (except for acoustic guitar sounds).

As Bill linked, the Omni is essentially a three-way PA Cab that can be used for bass. But, you are no longer in the small world.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Askia
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Location: Hungary (Central-Europe)

Re: FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#5 Post by Askia »

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Askia wrote: These cabs are designed for those guitar and bass players, who use amp and cab modeling effects, so that they could set their sounds without the coloration of a normal bass or guitar cabinet they usually use
As one who has used guitar modelers and played both direct into the PA and through amps - you have to set your sound regardless of the box you are playing through. To say that a "flat" response is a good thing for a guitar player is just marketing hype.....all the great tones have never come from a flat box. Full range boxes come into play if you are planning to play electric and acoustic models through the box.....the high end is useful for the acoustic. And face it, no PA you ever play through is flat - because if it is, it sounds like crap.
Yeah, the flat response cab isn't pleasant to listen to, but "theoretically" the reason to use a flat cab is, to reproduce the response of a modeled cab, so what you hear is not flat, but the "true" reproduction, becouse the flat cab won't alter the model. It's also a good question if you ever meet with a flat P.A., probably not, though, again, "theoretically" if you want to reproduce the "true" sounds you mike up on the stage, then you'd need a flat P.A. Of course I'm too idealist, there are no ideal acoustic environments, flat response mics, etc... I'm going too theoretical. Possible though, if the audience would hear the true sounds coming from the stage, everyone would burst in tears, and leave the venue :D

Bruce Weldy wrote: So, do you want a guitar cab that sounds like it's coming from a PA? Or, a PA cab that sounds like a guitar cab? There are a lot of portable (powered) cabs out there that need very little EQ to sound good, but to use one for guitar or bass use doesn't make a lot of sense (except for acoustic guitar sounds).

As Bill linked, the Omni is essentially a three-way PA Cab that can be used for bass. But, you are no longer in the small world.
I really wanted to have a portable cab that sounds like a P.A. to set my sound that's going to sound guy (almost) the same, as it will sound through the P.A. Again if you set a sound through a cab that's far from the sound of the P.A. you'll set your sound only for your own good. For example (I'm a basss player) with a midrangy bass speaker without tweeters, you set your eq with bass and treble boost, mid cut, to have a pleasant sound, and the soundguy will receive a useless undefined boomy twangy something. But if you have a cab that has the same range, as a P.A., you might cut low end, add some mids, and leave the highs... or whatever you want to achieve.
I know guitar players stuff is different, as the big part of their sound comes from the speakers, maybe thats why they are miked, and they are happy with it! :)

Bruce Weldy
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Re: FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#6 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Askia wrote:For example (I'm a basss player) with a midrangy bass speaker without tweeters, you set your eq with bass and treble boost, mid cut, to have a pleasant sound, and the soundguy will receive a useless undefined boomy twangy something. But if you have a cab that has the same range, as a P.A., you might cut low end, add some mids, and leave the highs... or whatever you want to achieve.
I know guitar players stuff is different, as the big part of their sound comes from the speakers, maybe thats why they are miked, and they are happy with it! :)
If you are running through a direct box, then FOH will make it sound best on the PA, you can set your stage sound to what sounds best from your rig.

If you are running a direct out from your amp, select the pre, not post position next to the output....again, this gives the FOH an uncolored sound. If you run post, then every change you make on stage will have an effect on the FOH sound.

With more and more bassists showing up with direct outs on their amp, I've finally let go of my "direct box only" rule and plugging in....but, I always check to make sure it's on "pre".

Now I better understand where you were going with your original post - a guitar player can just pick up any powered PA cab with a 12 and a horn....get your settings there and you'll be pretty close with any PA. However, bass just doesn't work that way - unless you are going to test your rig with a subwoofer and a top. Best is to rely on the FOH to make it right. If you want to guarantee that, then take your bass and direct box out to the mix position and dial it in with the engineer. That's really the only way you'll get it right.

Or, you can trust guys like me to get it right. :mrgreen:

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Chris_Allen
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Re: FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#7 Post by Chris_Allen »

I've used modelling amps/cabs/direct/guitars for over a decade.

Everything goes through the PA through a pedal board and back to me via the monitor. The monitor is autoeq'ed flat, along with the PA once it has been situated in position for the gig. I even mark tape around the monitor it in case some bugger moves it.

If done right, people can't tell if it's real or not and have often been asked which amp I use. At one point I considered mocking up a storage box to look like the front of a Marshall cab. Or turn the side of the rack box into what looks like a boutique amp. I could go one step further and turn the fake cab front into a dampener to absorb some of those high frequencies bouncing round the low ceilings.
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Re: FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#8 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Chris_Allen wrote:
If done right, people can't tell if it's real or not and have often been asked which amp I use. At one point I considered mocking up a storage box to look like the front of a Marshall cab. Or turn the side of the rack box into what looks like a boutique amp.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I've been going direct for almost 20 years now.....same thing - people always wanting to know where the amps are.

Couple of weeks ago, we were playing an outdoor show and two members of a band I know came up at the break and told me how great the guitar tones were.....told 'em it was the new special cabs we were using....then I pointed at the stage....then they go it.

More and more players are going that route. One of the top steel guitar players around here (he's toured with a lot of big names, produced records from his own studio, etc.) just says, "there's a direct out in the back, plug in there." And he sounds great.

If you are a guitar player and want to try running direct without getting rid of your amp, then try a Mesa Boogie Cab Clone. Let's you take the speaker out from your amp and send it direct via XLR to the board, then route the speaker input back to your amp - you hear what you always have, but the board gets a direct out and no mic to put up on the cab.

The band I worked last week used 'em - worked great. I use a Boogie head with it built in - been doing that for a couple of years, but with no speaker cab.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Askia
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Hungary (Central-Europe)

Re: FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#9 Post by Askia »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Now I better understand where you were going with your original post - a guitar player can just pick up any powered PA cab with a 12 and a horn....get your settings there and you'll be pretty close with any PA. However, bass just doesn't work that way - unless you are going to test your rig with a subwoofer and a top.
Maybe that's why Sting's bass rig is like that: two subs and two 12" top with tweters. :) He said it's not going loud, but needs it to have a full bass sound. :)
Bruce Weldy wrote: Best is to rely on the FOH to make it right. If you want to guarantee that, then take your bass and direct box out to the mix position and dial it in with the engineer. That's really the only way you'll get it right.
That's a great idea, thanks!
Bruce Weldy wrote: Or, you can trust guys like me to get it right. :mrgreen:
I'm absolutely sure about that! ;)

Askia
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:48 am
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Re: FRFR a'la Flat Response Full Range cabs

#10 Post by Askia »

Chris_Allen wrote:I've used modelling amps/cabs/direct/guitars for over a decade.

Everything goes through the PA through a pedal board and back to me via the monitor. The monitor is autoeq'ed flat, along with the PA once it has been situated in position for the gig. I even mark tape around the monitor it in case some bugger moves it.

If done right, people can't tell if it's real or not and have often been asked which amp I use. At one point I considered mocking up a storage box to look like the front of a Marshall cab. Or turn the side of the rack box into what looks like a boutique amp. I could go one step further and turn the fake cab front into a dampener to absorb some of those high frequencies bouncing round the low ceilings.

Good method! Thanks!

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