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 Post subject: Flexible Stage-monitor?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:46 am 
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Like I mentioned in the “introduce yourself forum”, we are looking for a nice PA-system.

It has to be flexible, lightweight, professional looking and not expensive. The advice is to choose a few designs and stick with them. For main-PA its simple for us: DR200 tops and T39 subs. They are perfect for us.

We dropped the idea of making a T24 for small events. A T39 is small enough and more flexible within the whole system.

The only doubt we have, so far, are the monitors. We can choose between Simplexx wedge 10 and 12, or Wedgehorn 6 and 8. The 10-version is too big for most of our applications. We want too use monitors for stage-monitoring and as main PA for small events.

1) The wedgehorn has wide dispersion. I think it’s nice to hear the monitor wherever you’re standing. But isn’t there a problem with mic’s that pickup more than when you use monitors with a normal dispersion? We expect to have 4 to 6 monitors on stage.

2) The sensitivity of the wedgehorns is fantastic compared to a Simplexx wedge, but what is the maximum SPL (without too much distortion) of both speakers? Is high sensitivity of more use then just not needing big amps? How loud should a stage-monitor go on al stage of 24 square meter for a metal-band?

3) The wedgehorns are very small and lightweight. Great.

4) The simplex uses an ASD1001 instead of Piezo’s. I must admit that I’ve never heard melded piezo’s, but at this point an coaxial speaker feels a lot better.

5) The simplex has more bass-response then a wedgehorn 6 or 8.

6) What I read on this forum is that wedgehorns are not the best choice for playing recorded music. Simplexx wedges have a flat response, when using an L-pad. This makes the wedgehorns more flexible.

The first, fourth, fifth and last reason are the ones that are responsible for us leaning towards the Simplex Wedge 10.

Why not use Dr200’s for small event’s and wedgehorns when you need stage monitors? Well, that’s a good question. Dr200’s are small, but still too big for presentations for example. You need speakers to produce sound, but the best speakers are invisible  (Al taught we like big line-arrays at festivals)
And we need them soon. Building Dr200’s will take some time…

Where do you use your PA-set for? Well… everything that comes to our path. Flexibility is very important for us.

Hope you understand our doubts. What do you think we should built? Are we missing something?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Svartrose wrote:
1) The wedgehorn has wide dispersion. I think it’s nice to hear the monitor wherever you’re standing. But isn’t there a problem with mic’s that pickup more than when you use monitors with a normal dispersion? We expect to have 4 to 6 monitors on stage.


The wider dispersion means you hear yourself much more easily, requiring less volume from the Wedgehorns. Less volume = less chance for feedback. If you have a band that has such high stage volume that they cannot hear themselves in stupid-loud monitors, no cabinet on Earth can overcome this. You can't fix stupidity.

Svartrose wrote:
2) The sensitivity of the wedgehorns is fantastic compared to a Simplexx wedge, but what is the maximum SPL (without too much distortion) of booth speakers? Is high sensitivity of more use then just not needing big amps? How loud should a stage-monitor go on al stage of 24 square meter for a metal-band?


Add +20dB for 28V (100 watts) of amp gain. Maximum SPL gain is determined exclusively by the drivers used. High sensitivity means you get more SPL for the same applied power. Wedgehorns are not "booth speakers", they are on-stage vocal monitors designed specifically to boost the human voice frequencies to cut through stage noise. A metal band, or any performance, could be near silent on stage, if they were motivated enough, willing to learn and able to put their ego aside for the benefit of their audience. Ask Bruce Weldy how it is to play without a backline.

Svartrose wrote:
3) The wedgehorns are very small and lightweight. Great.


Yes, they are. Some find them a bit "honky" because they don't EQ them properly. But they are just the thing to hear yourself on a fairly loud stage.

Svartrose wrote:
4) The simplex uses an ASD1001 instead of Piezo’s. I must admit that I’ve never heard melded piezo’s, but at this point an coaxial speaker feels a lot better.


And this is where the "leap of faith" has to take place. Piezos have a really bad reputation due to their usage in very poorly designed cabs. Bill has designed the melded arrays to work, and they do. You will find out first-hand when you complete your DR200s.

Svartrose wrote:
5) The simplex has more bass-response then a wedgehorn 6 or 8.


Yes. The Wedgehorns are designed to roll-off the lows under 100Hz, as vocal monitors just don't need sub-100Hz on stage. The below-100Hz should be handled by the PA subs. Since below 150Hz or so is omni-directional, the subs are going to wash the stage anyway. Adding cabs for below 100Hz is just asking for a muddy sound on stage. This also allows the power that would normally be used on the lowest octaves to be used where it is needed, in the human voice frequency range.

Svartrose wrote:
6) What I read on this forum is that wedgehorns are not the best choice for playing recorded music. Simplexx wedges have a flat response, when using an L-pad. This makes the wedgehorns more flexible.


This is a half-truth. They won't sound right without a lot of EQ. But, as stated somewhere else, bring the right tool for the job. Wedgehorn, or the Simplex wedge, are not the right tool for PA. They are fold-back vocal monitors. If you want to try and force them to do what they are not designed to do, expect there to be hurdles to overcome.

Svartrose wrote:
Why not use Dr200’s for small event’s and wedgehorns when you need stage monitors? Well, that’s a good question. Dr200’s are small, but still too big for presentations for example. You need speakers to produce sound, but the best speakers are invisible  (Al taught we like big line-arrays at festivals)
And we need them soon.


Wedgehorn 8 = 15x16x17 inch,Simplex 10 = 18” wide, 16.5” high, 14” deep, DR200 = 20x20x20 inch. Not a huge difference in size. But, the DR200 is designed as a PA top. The Wedgehorn is not. The Simplex can pass as a top, but does not perform as well as DR200. Need a PA top that is fairly small, and not intrusive to the eye? Then build the SLA Pro. Their "drawback" is the added expense of multiple drivers. But, once you have all the parts and material on hand, they are a pretty easy build. A lot easier than Wedgehorns or DR200s.

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
The standard six inch woofer version may be built with two Eminence Alpha 6 in a 15 inch high cab, or four Alpha 6 in a 29 inch high cab. The micro four and five inch woofer versions may be built with two Eminence Pro 5W in a 13 inch high cab, or four Alpha 4 or Pro 5W in a 25 inch high cab. It's the right size for smaller gigs, like weddings and corporate events, or for DJ monitoring. For larger gigs they can be stacked, in both straight and spiral array configurations, for either maximum throw or maximum horizontal dispersion. For Line array speakers dominate the world of pro-touring sound, because they work better. SLA Pro puts the advantages of line arrays within the reach of every band and DJ.


But I will still stick with my recommendation to build the Titan 39s first.

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I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:01 pm 
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I bailed on my quest for a DR build and settled for the Otop12's.
MUCH MUCH easier build, nearly as efficient, and still blow commercial cabs out of the water in terms of efficiency. I have four now.
I also have 4 T39s and am rather happy.
I built 2 W6s and 2 W8s. They are both great vocal monitors and with the piezo tweeters have a very wide dispersion. I can cover an 20 foot wide stage front with a single pair. The W6s are so small however that a lot of musicians think they are a toy and they tend to get kicked around. I built mine from thinner plywood and honestly don't use them much as I am afraind they will be stepped on. My W8s are great but as you observed, they don't dip too low. Great for singers but not for a player who wants to hear the bass guitar through their wedge. Honestly they will hear more bass from the mains but during sound check they aren't easily convinced of that and piss and moan about it so I relegate mine to strictly vocal monitor use.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:59 am 
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dswpro wrote:
MUCH MUCH easier build, nearly as efficient, and still blow commercial cabs out of the water in terms of efficiency. I have four now.


OT12 are also considerably easier to stack.

Though one DR200 maybe as efficient as 2x OT12, the 2x OT's benefit from the taller array height.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:35 am 
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DJPhatman wrote:
The wider dispersion means you hear yourself much more easily, requiring less volume from the Wedgehorns. Less volume = less chance for feedback. If you have a band that has such high stage volume that they cannot hear themselves in stupid-loud monitors, no cabinet on Earth can overcome this. You can't fix stupidity.

That sounds logical. But why do you read on many forums that sound techs prefer a small dispersion? Also, our best sound tech, who has 20 years experience, says that it's not a good idea to have wide dispersion on stage. I get a headache of this :)

Add +20dB for 28V (100 watts) of amp gain. Maximum SPL gain is determined exclusively by the drivers used. High sensitivity means you get more SPL for the same applied power. Wedgehorns are not "booth speakers", they are on-stage vocal monitors designed specifically to boost the human voice frequencies to cut through stage noise. A metal band, or any performance, could be near silent on stage, if they were motivated enough, willing to learn and able to put their ego aside for the benefit of their audience. Ask Bruce Weldy how it is to play without a backline.

I'm sorry, i meant BOTH speakers. So, can a simplex wedge go loud enough? I really like the idea of almost no sound on stage, but we will see all kinds of bands, we can't raise them all...

Yes, they are. Some find them a bit "honky" because they don't EQ them properly. But they are just the thing to hear yourself on a fairly loud stage.

Is it possible to EQ them in a way that they sound flat?

Wedgehorn 8 = 15x16x17 inch,Simplex 10 = 18” wide, 16.5” high, 14” deep, DR200 = 20x20x20 inch. Not a huge difference in size. But, the DR200 is designed as a PA top. The Wedgehorn is not. The Simplex can pass as a top, but does not perform as well as DR200. Need a PA top that is fairly small, and not intrusive to the eye? Then build the SLA Pro. Their "drawback" is the added expense of multiple drivers. But, once you have all the parts and material on hand, they are a pretty easy build. A lot easier than Wedgehorns or DR200s.

We sometimes use EV ZX1 for presentations. The are very small and lightweight. A SLA Pro might be a good alternative. But that means we have to build an extra speaker type.



Well, is it such a weird idea to go for simplexx wedges instead of wedgehorns? I know that's not the usual way around here, but they just seam more all-round speakers...


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