Subs placed next to bass player

[Haysus]

Many times I find myself setting the subs where it is best I can do to accommodate patrons and room modes. Many time the bass rig AMPEG 4'6" tall is within feet of the subs. Weird phase issues and certain frequencies dominate others regardless of eq. Especially when the sonic maximizer is turned on by the bass player.

Mostly wall loading next to the band.(2T39s)
I'm trying to follow placement sticky. Any suggestions?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Any suggestions?

The bass player must turn his amp bass EQ down so that the source of the low end is the subs, not the subs and bass speakers. Or you kill the bass EQ on the bass channel strip, so that the bass amp is the only low end source. You can't have two low end sources in close proximity.

Especially when the sonic maximizer is turned on by the bass player.

I went to the doctor. I told him 'My arm hurts when I do that". He said:
"Don't do that!"

[Haysus]

DUH!
So obvious. I high Passed his channel just above crossover and blammo instant stain remover.
Thanks for the lesson of basics.

[gboswell]

Bill, I know if I ask "how close is too close?" there's no cut and dry simple answer. But can you briefly comment.

[Gregory East]

It's the same multiple sub sources that are not separated by 56ft, 'don't split subs' problem. See the sub placement sticky.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

It's the same multiple sub sources that are not separated by 56ft, 'don't split subs' problem. See the sub placement sticky.

+1. If the subs and backline are running the same content they must be either close enough together to act as a single source or far enough apart to act as discreet sources. When you can't do either then you must filter the bass signal from the sub content.

[Haysus]

It's the same multiple sub sources that are not separated by 56ft, 'don't split subs' problem. See the sub placement sticky.

+1. If the subs and backline are running the same content they must be either close enough together to act as a single source or far enough apart to act as discreet sources. When you can't do either then you must filter the bass signal from the sub content.

This is why I have always struggled with a good low end sound until I got schooled here. Bass players insist that huge cabinet is what they need to hear themselves.Most sound guys in my area use massive amounts of speakers and power to overcome this problem. The end result is of course loud and not so good.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Bass players insist that huge cabinet is what they need to hear themselves.Most sound guys in my area use massive amounts of speakers and power to overcome this problem. The end result is of course loud and not so good.

+1. You can let the PA do it's job or you can compete with it and get a sonic crapfest. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a big bass rig, so long as you remember that PA is more properly called 'Sound Reinforcement'. You use it to fill the audience with whatever the backline isn't able to provide. If the bass, or guitar or even a zither is loud enough with minimal or even no PA support that's what you do. IMO the main shortcoming of most FOH men, from bar band to pro-touring, is the desire to use what they've got to the max. Sometimes the best position for a channel slider is off.

[gboswell]

It's funny. I repeatedly get frustrated with my musician buddies when they're resistant to "new" ideas like don't split the subs on either side of the stage. Now as a bassist, in this thread, I kinda just grasped this for the first time myself (in the context of my rig in proximity to the subs). Tonight I'll try taking the below 100Hz content out of my backline rig.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

ITonight I'll try taking the below 100Hz content out of my backline rig.

Or out of the subs, or a bit out of each, whatever works best. Also keep in mind that typically subs are strong to an octave below where the backline speaker is, so depending on your tone you may want to low-pass the sub on the bass channel strip. It takes a bit of diddling to find out what works best.

[Gregory East]

Erm, highpass the bass to get bass sub out iof PA sn't it?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Erm, highpass the bass to get bass sub out iof PA sn't it?

Lowpass if you want to get out of the PA the lower octave that the backline won't do anyway without duplicating what the backline can do. Again, it's sound reinforcement. IMO they way to do bass is let the bassplayer get his onstage tone and levels where he wants it, then use the PA to get the tone and levels right for the room, whatever it takes.

[Mikey]

When I was recently running sound for metal bands at a local club, three of the bass players PURPOSELY had horrible distorted sound coming from their amps, akin to amplified dinosaur farts. Funny that I tried to help each one of them rid themselves of "their sound" but they all apparently thought that this old man just didn't know WTF he's talking about. Even though I had their DI to the board, and was able to get an acceptable sound fron the mains, the "blend" of the bass from their amp and the bass in the mains sounded even worse, even when I cut the bottom end from the channel. I had no choice but to take them out of the mains, and the bands' sound out front suffered big time.

During that same string of metal gigs, there were two lead singers who had terrible mic "technique". Same shit; they just wouldn't listen. I turned their monitor off and brought down their volume in the mix. One guy didn't even react to it; he just finished the gig. The other guy kept giving me dirty looks, motioning me to turn up the monitors, and finally told me over the PA, "TURN MY FUCKING MONITOR ON" ... LMFAO ... I screamed back across the club, "AS SOON AS YOU LEARN HOW TO SING AND USE A FUCKING MICROPHONE" ... the crowd laughed and the singer was obviously embarrassed. Tough shit.

These Saturday Rock Nights were at a failing country & western bar which was being run by a motorcycle club (GREAT guys to deal with). Three bands every Saturday night for a couple months. Oddly enough, EVERY guitarist took my advice and sounded great, except for one (who also happened to be the worst guitarist to play there during that period). NONE of the drummers gave me any trouble at all.

Side note: on one of these nights, there was this band of young kids (I think they were under 21) who were scheduled to play last, and they "seemed" to be nervous and inexperienced. Real nice kids, very respectful, hung on my every word. To be honest, I expected the worst. OMG these kids hit the stage and they were AWESOME!!! All originals, tighter than a gnat's ass in a dust storm. They had their music and their stage act down pat. I was SHOCKED. They were, by far, the best band out of the entire string of shows. Oddly enough, I can't remember their damn name!

[Gregory East]

Erm, highpass the bass to get bass sub out iof PA sn't it?

Lowpass if you want to get out of the PA the lower octave that the backline won't do anyway without duplicating what the backline can do. Again, it's sound reinforcement. IMO they way to do bass is let the bassplayer get his onstage tone and levels where he wants it, then use the PA to get the tone and levels right for the room, whatever it takes.

Potato, potatoe? Still confused. I'm thinking you're saying cut out the sub range of the bass content in the PA. Which I thought is known as highpassing a signal. Not something my mixer can do anyway so I don't know why I'm bothering.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I'm thinking you're saying cut out the sub range of the bass content in the PA.

I'm saying cut what the backline will do, which very often is only 60Hz and up, and leave in what the backline won't do, very often everything below 60Hz. That's if you want high content below 60hz, which some does and some don't.