Titan 39

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henryperry
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Titan 39

#1 Post by henryperry »

Just a little introduction as the Topic suggests. I've been playing guitar on and off (mostly off) for 40 years. When I started in churches, then clubs, if you had a powered Peavey XR-1200 or an XR-600 and a couple of 15's on Stands you ROCKED. Not so much these days. So as my tribute band, through the trials and tribulations, has progressed I've bought more gear and added more power. (still don't know how to properly use it) Of course those of you who have done live gigs in local watering holes know, when you arrive for the first gig one of the staff ushers you to the "stage" and says "set up here". As you evaluate the 6" tall 10' by 6' stage that you have to get a 5 piece AC/DC tribute band setup on you ask "where is the power"? They show you two outlets, one has been pulled slightly from the wall. When you ask if they are on separate breakers the answer is almost always "I don't think so". So I need more sound (and better sound) with less power draw. So I'm going to attempt to build 2 24" Titan 39's with Lab 12's. I don't really have any woodworking experience. I am more of a "fix the car when you have to" kind of DIY'er. Hopefully the two T39's will allow me to sell off the 2 1x15 and 2 1x18 cabs I use now and then only use 1 EP4000 amp, keep the other amp for a spare. So I'll try not to be a bother, but I will be lurking and if I'm stumped I'll be asking questions. To the guys who post threads here and answer questions...Some of you are really amazing. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and expertise.

Grant Bunter
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Re: Titan 39

#2 Post by Grant Bunter »

G'day Henry,
Welcome to the forum :)

Any particular reason you're going for the Lab12?
Based on www.speakerhardware.com pricing, the 3012lf costs $15/driver more, but will save you about 15 pounds per cab in weight, and the step of having to put in chamber reducers.
Output with both drivers will be identical.
Having lugged around 15's and 18's for a while, you might not think that is much of a weight saving, but hey, everything helps, especially at the end of the gig!

By the way, Leland Crooks, a forum member here, owns speakerhardware and tries to look after us as much as possible ;)

Looking at the EP4000 manual, I can't see slope type in the limiter.
It probably means it's inadequate as a brick wall limiter, which is required for these designs for driver protection.
Most people achieve that with rack DSP, such as DBX driverack series, or Berry's DCX 2496 & DEQ 2496 combo, or DSP enabled amps.
Have you got one already?

Please read (and learn) the sub placement sticky;
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... f=10&t=398

Until you get your cabs built, any gigs you have, you should try to set subs up as per that sticky.
Other than power useage, one of your problems at the moment is a combination of 15" loaded subs and 18" loaded subs. Do you use them together?
If you do, the two different types of cabs will also have differing phase response.
So you are likely to be running into phase response issues, which causes frequency cancellations or nulls in the lower frequencies.
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Tom Smit
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Re: Titan 39

#3 Post by Tom Smit »

Welcome to the forum, Henry!

Are the subs for bass only, or for the band?
TomS

henryperry
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Re: Titan 39

#4 Post by henryperry »

Hi Grant and Tom. Thank you for responding. Grant I have read the sticky on sub placement. I'll be doing everything I can of course with what I have. 2 PV 118 cabs that i installed low riders in and 2 SA 115 cabs that I took the 300 watt Chinese speakers out of and installed low riders in. The lower riders will thump and the cabs are close to the cubic foot spec but they are not tuned so I could probably have better sound with different boxes. I have blown one PV 18 with those EP4000 amps in bridge mode. Before I started reading no one really told me much about limiting. The amps have a low cut @ 30 or 50hz, that seems to work OK but our kick probably doesn't go down that far. I have it set to 50hz. The limiters are engaged but it's a 4K peak amp in bridge mode. So I had to guestimate output and watch for clipping. That doesn't always work I found ouch!$$.
I was thinking about an inuke NU3000 dsp, since I run the tops with a straight NU3000. But the DCX 2496 will work with whatever I have and I'm not going to throw away 2 EP4000's. Right now I use and older dbx 223 crossover and other than the Compressor/limiters on the XR-18 digital mixer, that's all we run. As far as the Lab 12. I ordered that because Bill's plans said it was the premium driver. It's possible I read it wrong. I ordered the Lab 12 pack from speakerhardware.com so I wouldn't have to go looking for screws at the depot or filling up my wish list at parts-express. The prices are good at both sites so I got it all in one place. I guess I'll get a little workout...I need that since I spend 12 hours a day at a desk and they call me Fat Angus, lol. BTW I looked all over for Birch Plywood and couldn't find it. Until I found a lumber company 1 block behind my office. They had good 5 ply 1/2 inch birch in stock. $40 a 4x8 sheet. Wow I am rambling. Just excited about the build I guess. Good to hear from you guys. I'm sure I'll have questions as I go. Thanks!

David Raehn
Posts: 676
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Location: Colonial Beach VA

Re: Titan 39

#5 Post by David Raehn »

Double check that Birch.....

Should be 9 plies for 1/2"(12mm).

If it's 5 plies, it might just be veneer.
BFM rig:
6 OT12
4 T48
4 WH8
Other:
56 box Electrotec LabQ rig
Way too many cables
:noob:

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Tom Smit
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Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: Titan 39

#6 Post by Tom Smit »

David Raehn wrote:Double check that Birch.....

Should be 9 plies for 1/2"(12mm).

If it's 5 plies, it might just be veneer.
+1


DSP in the amp is not needed if your are going to be using the DCX2496. Having the DCX allows you to use the current EP4000 for the subs, while also tuning the tops as well.
TomS

Grant Bunter
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Re: Titan 39

#7 Post by Grant Bunter »

henryperry wrote:Hi Grant and Tom. Thank you for responding. Grant I have read the sticky on sub placement. I'll be doing everything I can of course with what I have. 2 PV 118 cabs that i installed low riders in and 2 SA 115 cabs that I took the 300 watt Chinese speakers out of and installed low riders in. The lower riders will thump and the cabs are close to the cubic foot spec but they are not tuned so I could probably have better sound with different boxes. I have blown one PV 18 with those EP4000 amps in bridge mode. Before I started reading no one really told me much about limiting. The amps have a low cut @ 30 or 50hz, that seems to work OK but our kick probably doesn't go down that far. I have it set to 50hz. The limiters are engaged but it's a 4K peak amp in bridge mode. So I had to guestimate output and watch for clipping. That doesn't always work I found ouch!$$.
I was thinking about an inuke NU3000 dsp, since I run the tops with a straight NU3000. But the DCX 2496 will work with whatever I have and I'm not going to throw away 2 EP4000's. Right now I use and older dbx 223 crossover and other than the Compressor/limiters on the XR-18 digital mixer, that's all we run. As far as the Lab 12. I ordered that because Bill's plans said it was the premium driver. It's possible I read it wrong. I ordered the Lab 12 pack from speakerhardware.com so I wouldn't have to go looking for screws at the depot or filling up my wish list at parts-express. The prices are good at both sites so I got it all in one place. I guess I'll get a little workout...I need that since I spend 12 hours a day at a desk and they call me Fat Angus, lol. BTW I looked all over for Birch Plywood and couldn't find it. Until I found a lumber company 1 block behind my office. They had good 5 ply 1/2 inch birch in stock. $40 a 4x8 sheet. Wow I am rambling. Just excited about the build I guess. Good to hear from you guys. I'm sure I'll have questions as I go. Thanks!
Hey, that's all cool, just trying to provide you with lighter options.
If you go the DCX 2496 way, as Tom has said, the great thing is, you don't need DSP amps. While the DCX costs you $, the non DSP amps cost you less $.
Still, all in all, if you have EP4000's, are happy with them, and can limit them appropriately, no probs.
Don't double up on DSP in any way, turn off any DSP in the EP4000's if you're using a DCX.

Ok, just to keep you on a learning journey, phase response has little to do with limiting, bridging amps, and so on, other than, interactions due to phase response between the two different designs may lead to trying to "fix" that problem via EQ, which may actually make the problem worse.

Have you got user manuals for your subs, or links to them (a quick net search turned up nothing useful for me)?

Sure, changing drivers in a cab will/may change tuning, but saying "they are not tuned" is wrong.
There will be tuning, but with driver substitution, you now no longer know what that tuning is.
Regardless of what you have substituted, there is no way that the tuning of a 1 x 15 will likely be the same as a 1 x 18, in part, due to the differing phase response of the 2 different designs.
That's where running the 2 different designs together, may, in part, present itself as a problem.

Now then, on a totally different tack, tell me about your AC/DC tribute band!
I have a very good mate who was the "Angus" in one of the first Aussie AC/DC tribute bands and can no longer stand hearing any AC/DC song in any form. I've also played drums live for over 35 years, and been known to be in the odd band or two doing the odd AC/DC cover.
Do you guys base yourselves on Bon songs, or Brian songs?

Back in the day (hell that makes me sound like an old fart, and I probably am) Australian bands toured constantly for a minimum of 10-15 years in order to become "instant overnight successes", and that too is a significant part of the grit displayed in many Aussie bands songs. While I'm never going to ask anyone to live the same lives any of those bands did, it is an integral part of their "sound"...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Tom Smit
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Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: Titan 39

#8 Post by Tom Smit »

Back in the day (hell that makes me sound like an old fart, and I probably am
Not yet, but close. :lol:
TomS

Grant Bunter
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Re: Titan 39

#9 Post by Grant Bunter »

Tom Smit wrote:
Back in the day (hell that makes me sound like an old fart, and I probably am
Not yet, but close. :lol:
:lol: :clap:
Touche. And true...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

henryperry
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:00 am
Location: Atlanta GA
Contact:

Re: Titan 39

#10 Post by henryperry »

Tom Smit wrote:
Back in the day (hell that makes me sound like an old fart, and I probably am
Not yet, but close. :lol:

Tom, I'm 50 and still trying to learn things I should have known in my 30s, lol.

henryperry
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Location: Atlanta GA
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Re: Titan 39

#11 Post by henryperry »

Sorry for taking so long guys, I work 14 hour days during the week.
Grant, The cabs I have are 2 x Peavey PV118 and tow seismic audio 15's http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/emp ... Empty-Pair
All loaded respectively with low rider 15's and 18's. (not pro rider's) But if the Titan 39's work out I will be taking those out of service. The original drivers would take 300 watts for the 15's and 400 for the 18's. So I just did guitar player math and put in the Lowriders so I could bridge the EP4000 amps and get some thump. Not the best idea I know ...now. But I made it work for 3 years. But I have blown a Lowrider 18 twice. I don't know how to use the programs that run specs on drivers and boxes (yet). So I'll build the BFM Titans and let them do the work. I'll go back to running 1 EP4000 amp mono parallel and have about 500 watts available for each 400 watt Lab 12 sub. That should give me a little headroom. I finally remembered why I got the Lab12 over the 3012LF. Quote :
Output isn’t about watts, it’s about driver displacement (T/S spec Vd). The BP102 has 207cc Vd, the Delta 12LF 243 cc, so the Delta 12 is only slightly louder. The Kappa Pro 10LF Vd is 271cc, the 3010LF Vd 305cc. The Lab 12 Vd is 659cc, so it’s equivalent to three BP102 or Delta 12LF, justifying its weight and price.
So just trying to follow the plans and make good decisions.
The band is called Sin City. facebook.com/sincityatlanta reverbnation.com/sincityatlanta. On the reverb nation page there is a passable version of Highway to hell recorded live with a zoom stereo video camera I took the audio from. We do about 2/3 Bon and 1/3 Brian. 3 hours shows....about 40 songs we draw from.
We've been playing around Georgia Alabama and South Carolina for almost 4 years. It's tough out there, people seem to be more interested in playing with their phones than rock music in the local bars. The girls usually ask me to play Hip hop on our breaks...it's a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll. We do the best we can and usually play places that can seat 100-150, but do have the odd place that can seat 400-500. And we started doing Bike rallies last year , they provide production.
So Grant are you still playing? if so what are you doing?
My shipment came in from speakerhardware.com Lets get this stuff unboxed and see what we can get into.

commander_dan
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Titan 39

#12 Post by commander_dan »

henryperry wrote:I finally remembered why I got the Lab12 over the 3012LF
The lab12 and 3012LF both have the same output, despite the 3012LF having a vd of 496cc, due to the lab12 being a 6 ohm driver. 3012LF is lighter.. at least you'll keep your muscles big :!:
Built:
6 T30 (24", 3012LF)
2 OT12 (MA, 3012HO)
2 T24 (18", 3010LF)

Running:
DCX2496
XTi 2002
XTi 4002
TRAKTOR Z2
TECHNICS 1210 Mk5's

CoronaOperator
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Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: Titan 39

#13 Post by CoronaOperator »

henryperry wrote:So I just did guitar player math
I'd take the course but only if the notes came in tablature!

:lol: :lol:
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

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Tom Smit
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Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: Titan 39

#14 Post by Tom Smit »

On the reverb nation page there is a passable version of Highway to hell recorded live with a zoom stereo video camera I took the audio from.
Not bad. :clap:
A couple of questions: was the camera moving around during the recording, or was it windy? (I thought I could hear phasing, or something. And,...voice, guitar and drums were quite distinguishable, but where's the bass? I know, I'm being picky. :)
TomS

henryperry
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Location: Atlanta GA
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Re: Titan 39

#15 Post by henryperry »

Tom Smit wrote:
On the reverb nation page there is a passable version of Highway to hell recorded live with a zoom stereo video camera I took the audio from.
Not bad. :clap:
A couple of questions: was the camera moving around during the recording, or was it windy? (I thought I could hear phasing, or something. And,...voice, guitar and drums were quite distinguishable, but where's the bass? I know, I'm being picky. :)

The camera was moving. We had a friend running the camera and he frequently Turned the camera away from us to catch the Biker babes dancing on the table tops. He also had instances where he dropped his arm and the camera pointed at the ground. That's why I just ripped the audio from it. The video was pretty much not usable.

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