Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

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Ryan A
Posts: 867
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:19 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#16 Post by Ryan A »

commander_dan wrote: Ryan A, I know that I'm running the gear too hard if I'm considering things like this but as you can see I'm also out of pack space, so building more cabs isn't an option right now. In computers and general electronics, cooling parts means you can push more power more efficiently through them, which is why I was thinking along the lines of cooling for the drivers.
I'm guessing all you need to do is load properly to get that extra 6-12 db like Tom said, then you can turn your gain down a bit and it won't be a problem. That's an impressive stack to be running at full tilt in relation to your tops, especially indoors.

sine143
Posts: 3066
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:27 pm
Location: Raleigh NC

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#17 Post by sine143 »

Every single gig had my slim t48s hot at the end of the night. I ran them aboute 30-60 times a year and lost about 1 driver a year.


For the most par they will be fine until the dj let's a track run for 4 minutes that's just sine wave at impedance minima. That's what always killed mine.
Built:
2x Tuba 30s delta12lf loaded (gone)
4x Otop12 d2512 loaded
8x t48s (18, 18, 24, 24, 30, 30) 3015lf loaded
2x AT (1 mcm, 1 gto 804)
2x SLA Pro (dayton pa6, 6 goldwood piezo loaded)
1x bastard XF208

2x OT212 (delta pro 450a loaded, eminence psd)

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#18 Post by CoronaOperator »

Bruce Weldy wrote:I'm pretty sure that the subs weren't hot because of the temperature - they were hot under the collar having to endure 6 straight hours of that kind of music. :cussing:


I'd be hot too.
Come on Bruce, how much difference could there possibly be between the dub step and the two step?
:loler:
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#19 Post by Bruce Weldy »

CoronaOperator wrote:
Bruce Weldy wrote:I'm pretty sure that the subs weren't hot because of the temperature - they were hot under the collar having to endure 6 straight hours of that kind of music. :cussing:


I'd be hot too.
Come on Bruce, how much difference could there possibly be between the dub step and the two step?
:loler:
You mean Dub Taylor Step?
Dub_Taylor_in_Bonnie_And_Clyde.jpg
Dub_Taylor_in_Bonnie_And_Clyde.jpg (15.55 KiB) Viewed 2115 times

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#20 Post by CoronaOperator »

sine143 wrote:Every single gig had my slim t48s hot at the end of the night. I ran them aboute 30-60 times a year and lost about 1 driver a year.
From the heat transfer equation all things being equal the skinny cabs would be the first to go. You are using the 3015lf which is a neodymium driver. They don't have much thermal mass behind them to act as a heat sink like a heavy ceramic magnet does. I can see them becoming hot after 4-5 minutes. The heavy ceramic magnets of the lab12 could store more heat before getting hot. They will eventually get cooked on a sine wave but all you need to do is make it until the next "break" in the song to cool off a bit before the next assult. The heavier magnets act like a buffer in that regard.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

commander_dan
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:19 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#21 Post by commander_dan »

CoronaOperator wrote:using the 3015lf which is a neodymium driver. They don't have much thermal mass behind them to act as a heat sink like a heavy ceramic magnet does. I can see them becoming hot after 4-5 minutes.
What would you say a dangerous temp to be approaching would be?
Built:
6 T30 (24", 3012LF)
2 OT12 (MA, 3012HO)
2 T24 (18", 3010LF)

Running:
DCX2496
XTi 2002
XTi 4002
TRAKTOR Z2
TECHNICS 1210 Mk5's

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#22 Post by CoronaOperator »

commander_dan wrote: What would you say a dangerous temp to be approaching would be?
Too many variables to even fathom a guess. I would think the only way to figure that out would be to monitor the levels until failure then back it down from there empirically.

I'm very intrigued by your idea of liquid cooling. AFAIK nobody has done it before, I could be wrong. It would add a lot of complexity and points of failure to a passive box. However, my boys $100 R/C boat has liquid cooling for its electric motor, you would think that the $4k boxes the big boys build could incorporate it, especially on an active box where power is already available. I'll share an idea I always had. If you steal it, I'll come find you :twisted: . I always thought that one could incorporate a laser temperature reader into a system. The laser could read the voice coils temperature in real time and control an automatic gain control/dynamic limiter to allow a driver to perform right up to the cusp of the voice coil melting with feedback controls to prevent that from happening. Of coarse if you need that then the answer is more boxes but in your case your cart is full.

If I were in your shoes I would first try a passive cooling device. Easiest solution to the problem wins. Aluminum plate isn't that expensive and can be tooled with your current woodworking tools. You want the T6-6061 grade as it chips away when tooled and cuts clean rather than smearing like butter for pure aluminum or having one long unbroken rats nest of waste material that feeds back into the work piece like other grades.

Another thing I see is that dcx2496 you have. It has a dynamic EQ section. Learn to use it. Thats means the dynamic EQ won't engage until you hit a certain input level, it disappears until then. If you took an impedance sweep of the T30 or have someone else do that with parts express DATS hardware/software or equivalent you will find the impedance minima points of the T30. Those points are where the most power gets dumped into the voicecoils. Check out one of the last posts on my T60 builds in my signature for a picture of an impedance plot. You could set some dynamic parametric EQ's on those points to limit power to those exact frequencies. If you set them narrow enough and to only kick in at extreme levels it might not be noticable. They would only come on the very loud passages and only on certain frequencies where everything else going on in the song could conceal their use.

I'm all for high tech solutions, I look forward to your solutions. If you do try watercooling make sure the system can handle the wattage of the subs. Too small a system would get overloaded and be a lot of work for nothing.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

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LelandCrooks
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Location: Midwest/Kansas/Speaker Nirvana
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Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#23 Post by LelandCrooks »

Google Wayne Parham.
If it's too loud, you're even older than me! Like me.
http://www.speakerhardware.com

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Tom Smit
Posts: 7457
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#24 Post by Tom Smit »

LelandCrooks wrote:Google Wayne Parham.
Impressive, the test that he did.
TomS

sine143
Posts: 3066
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:27 pm
Location: Raleigh NC

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#25 Post by sine143 »

CoronaOperator wrote:
commander_dan wrote:
Another thing I see is that dcx2496 you have. It has a dynamic EQ section. Learn to use it. Thats means the dynamic EQ won't engage until you hit a certain input level, it disappears until then. If you took an impedance sweep of the T30 or have someone else do that with parts express DATS hardware/software or equivalent you will find the impedance minima points of the T30. Those points are where the most power gets dumped into the voicecoils. Check out one of the last posts on my T60 builds in my signature for a picture of an impedance plot.
good concept, but a compressor or a limiter doesnt really protect against thermal issues. both reduce the crest factor of the source material as they engage... thermal power stays the same basically.
Built:
2x Tuba 30s delta12lf loaded (gone)
4x Otop12 d2512 loaded
8x t48s (18, 18, 24, 24, 30, 30) 3015lf loaded
2x AT (1 mcm, 1 gto 804)
2x SLA Pro (dayton pa6, 6 goldwood piezo loaded)
1x bastard XF208

2x OT212 (delta pro 450a loaded, eminence psd)

Rich4349
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:18 am
Location: Kankakee, IL

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#26 Post by Rich4349 »

"...using the 3015lf which is a neodymium driver. They don't have much thermal mass behind them to act as a heat sink like a heavy ceramic magnet does. "

I don't know if this is barking up the right tree. If the more massive magnet was so much larger that it could absorb all the heat produced from all night long, then maybe. But we're talking a couple kg of extra mass here. And they're both in a static air / no convection permitted enclosure. So EITHER size magnet is going to max out its heat storage capacity sooner rather than later. The real trick, as said before, is to keep them chugging along at or just above idle as much as possible, via multiple cabs, and juggling their impedances with various series /parallel configurations. (You don't HAVE to keep dividing with parallels each time.)
2 DR250s, 2 27" Lab15 T-60s, 2 30" Neo Titan 39s, 1 Autotuba...and looking for more!

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Posts: 28620
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#27 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Rich4349 wrote:"...using the 3015lf which is a neodymium driver. They don't have much thermal mass behind them to act as a heat sink like a heavy ceramic magnet does. "
I don't know if this is barking up the right tree.
+1. You don't want a big mass that holds heat around the voice coil, you want something that sloughs heat away from the voice coil. That's what the finned aluminum heat sink on the 3015LF does.
This isn't rocket science, if you're blowing drivers you don't have enough of them for what you're doing. Either add more cabs or upgrade to a better driver, like the 18Sound NLW 9300.

NukePooch
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:07 pm
Location: Berea, Kentucky

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#28 Post by NukePooch »

Bruce Weldy wrote:
NukePooch wrote:
Bruce Weldy wrote:I'm pretty sure that the subs weren't hot because of the temperature - they were hot under the collar having to endure 6 straight hours of that kind of music. :cussing:


I'd be hot too.
Image
Excellent play!

Thanks. I feel your pain. I've been there many times before...usually in the fourth hour of a weekend long rave...or amateur rap festival...
Built:
4 Jack 112L- 3012HO, melded array
17.5 wide AutoTuba with Infinity 860w
6 Wedgehorn W6 w/ Panel Mount Piezos
2 T48 Slims (15" wide) with 3012LF
4 T48 Fattys (32" wide) with 3015LF

commander_dan
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:19 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#29 Post by commander_dan »

CoronaOperator wrote:If I were in your shoes I would first try a passive cooling device. Easiest solution to the problem wins.
I think I'll go this route for now. If and when we have our first driver failure, I'll switch to a liquid cooling solution.
LelandCrooks wrote:Google Wayne Parham.
Thanks for the tip Leland, that's put some ideas in my head.
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:This isn't rocket science, if you're blowing drivers you don't have enough of them for what you're doing. Either add more cabs or upgrade to a better driver, like the 18Sound NLW 9300.
This is more of a preventative idea at this point, as we haven't blown any drivers yet. Would you happen to have a figure on hand for what would be a dangerous temp to be approaching for the 3012LF magnet or voicecoil? I don't see the harm in having a crack at better cooling for the drivers, if it helps increase their lifespan. Do you agree with Mr Parham's testing/findings on his LAB12 passive cooler?

Thankyou everyone for your thoughts and advice.
Built:
6 T30 (24", 3012LF)
2 OT12 (MA, 3012HO)
2 T24 (18", 3010LF)

Running:
DCX2496
XTi 2002
XTi 4002
TRAKTOR Z2
TECHNICS 1210 Mk5's

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 28620
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: Warehouse party, 6 T30's, 2 OT12's

#30 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

commander_dan wrote: Do you agree with Mr Parham's testing/findings on his LAB12 passive cooler?
It does work, but the two issues that it addresses is the LAB 12 doesn't have heat sinking built in, and most of the users of LAB 12 drivers who blew them had them loaded in LAB Subs, which has a rear chamber that's too small. The solution for the LAB Sub was to use an aluminum driver access cover, in an attempt to better cool the driver chamber. Parham took a different route, but his primary interest was to beat the LAB Sub in output for bragging rights, as he and the LAB Sub designer, Tom Danley, have been involved in a pissing contest for the last 15 years. Even if you double the power handling of the LAB 12 you'll just destroy it mechanically.

BTW, the T60 beats both the LAB Sub and the 12Pi. :clap:

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