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 Post subject: Rig debut
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 9:05 am
Posts: 195
Location: MS Coast
Hi everybody - I'm stoked to finally be able to share with first official outing of my BFM rig!

Over the last couple of years I've been assembling a complete band PA, from the ground up, based on OmniTop 12s and Titan 39s. I've also been acquiring all of the rack electronics to run it. A complete inventory:

Behringer XR18 digital mixer
QSC PLD 4.2 for tops and monitors
QSC PLD 4.3 for subs
QSC PLX 1202 (old) as a backup/emergency amp
Apple Airport Express dedicated wifi, running a 2008 MacBook Pro and a 2012 iPad Mini
2 OmniTop 12s with 2512 and melded piezo array
2 OmniTop 12s with 2512 and straight piezo array
2 Titan 39s 24" wide with 3012LF
2 Wedgehorn 8s with Beta (although the band prefer to use their old wedges; we'll have to work on that)

Last night was the first official outing for the entire rig, and my very first outing as a soundman to boot! Event was a birthday party for our BL's uncle, with about 150 people from the community in attendance. Entertainment was from two sibling bands - one older, one younger, but about half of the musicians are in both. So that meant a total of 9 musicians, 4 guitars, 3 keyboards, 1 bass, 1 drum kit. 7 channels of vocals, 10 channels of instruments (drum kit was sub-mixed from the throne, with a separate kick feed). The XR18 was just barely able to accommodate this; I had to use the "basic" channel 17 for one of the keyboards.

Room was a 75 x 75 square, with bare walls and concrete floors - very reverberant, even when filled with guests! For that reason much of the sound was coming directly from the backline. :roll: At one point my wife was looking over my shoulder during a guitar solo; the solo was too loud, so I dropped that fader down. When it didn't make any difference, I muted his channel entirely, which still didn't make any difference. She laughed. :D Here's a pic I took from the back of the room, just to give a visual - I suspect there are thousands of halls just like this across the country and across the world, that suffer from the same lousy acoustics that this one does!

Image

Setup was a breeze compared to our usual PA (1990s-era bass reflex stuff with class AB amps, ugh). The OTs looked really nice on their poles. I put the two T39s together against the wall, just visible in the background here (they made a nice shelf for putting other band crap on):

Image

And here's an artificially-enhanced action shot. Several of the band guys were peering into the OT grills, trying to figure out just exactly what was inside. Bruce and DJP, I haven't completely discounted the AC foam grill treatment, but for now I'm digging the semi-sheer look, which allows a peek at the inner workings, showing off the tweeter arrays a bit. It was a conversation piece, especially when it took one of the fellas a few minutes to understand that I built them myself! He was clearly impressed with both the design and the execution. :hyper: (My modified 2010-era Jacks that I use for bass guitar are against the back wall too - the top one has eight 1005 tweeters panel-mounted, and both are currently sporting BP102 drivers - shhhh, don't tell anyone I deviated from the plans!)

Image

Sound was good, given the acoustic circumstances. The OTs sounded amazing; very clear and crisp, and effortlessly loud. Because the room was boomy, I used quite a bit of low-cut EQ, and kept the kick level down, so the T39s were basically idling all night. I dropped the bass guitar backline out entirely, as the rogue Jacks completely filled the room all on their own. Definitely not a workout for the subs!

Having gates for all the mics, compression for the vocals, and three monitor sends instead of our usual two made the XR18 a hit for me. I was able to give our BL his own aux bus for his IEMs; he downloaded the app on his iPad, connected, and did his own IEM mix. Nice.

Monitor feedback was virtually nonexistent. I was able to keep the mains level reasonable, which meant the monitor levels were also reasonable. I also think the OT clarity helped a lot here. When I was singing lead, I could hear myself through the mains about as equally loud as the monitors. Bounce-back from the rear wall? Or my close proximity to the (slightly toed-in) OmniTop? Whatever the reason, I really liked it.

Tear down afterwards was a joy as well, since these cabs and this rack are so lightweight. Another huge plus in my book.

Overall, the band members and other musos in the audience were very complimentary. One guy likened it to "a huge stereo", a description that I've read here on the forum but never experienced firsthand.

Thanks Bill for the fantastic designs, and thanks to all of you forumites from whom I've learned a lot, and who have coached and advised me along the way! More to come!

_________________
-todd

5 and 8 string bass | SansAmp | Crown | 2 x J110
2 x W8 panel-mount
2 x T39 24" 3012LF
4 x OT12 2512 melded (finally done!)


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Posts: 6127
Location: New Braunfels, TX
:clap: :clap: :clap:

_________________

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:24 pm
Posts: 6343
Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada
Thanks for sharing!
:D

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TomS


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:08 am
Posts: 5375
Location: Warren, MI
:hyper: :clap: :ugeek:

Kudos on the gig, and the compliments!

Is there a consensus about what wasn't liked with the Wedgehorns?

_________________
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:07 pm
Posts: 275
Location: Berea, Kentucky
Awesome!

I too have had a lot of guys looking into the front of my Jacks, trying to figure out what I did. I like the look of the A/C filter/grille combo, but I think I like the unexpected attention of having 'weird' speakers more.

_________________
4 Jack 112L- 3012HO, melded array
2 Jack 112 (bought), straight array
17.5 wide AutoTuba with Infinity 860w
6 Wedgehorn W6 w/ Panel Mount Piezos
2 T48 Slims (15" wide) with 3012LF


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:39 am 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 9:05 am
Posts: 195
Location: MS Coast
DJPhatman wrote:
Is there a consensus about what wasn't liked with the Wedgehorns?


I haven't really pressed them on it, but the one specific comment I got had to do with excessive brightness. It doesn't help that they (we) tend to mix and match monitor types on the same channel, so EQ is out the window. Honestly, they're just a bunch of good ol' boys who aren't accustomed to change. I was actually really proud of them for accepting the subs against the wall. :cowboy: Baby steps... :D

_________________
-todd

5 and 8 string bass | SansAmp | Crown | 2 x J110
2 x W8 panel-mount
2 x T39 24" 3012LF
4 x OT12 2512 melded (finally done!)


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:56 am 
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Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm
Posts: 25710
ctmullins wrote:
It doesn't help that they (we) tend to mix and match monitor types on the same channel
:cop:


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:32 am 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 9:05 am
Posts: 195
Location: MS Coast
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
ctmullins wrote:
It doesn't help that they (we) tend to mix and match monitor types on the same channel
:cop:


Yes, I know... :(

_________________
-todd

5 and 8 string bass | SansAmp | Crown | 2 x J110
2 x W8 panel-mount
2 x T39 24" 3012LF
4 x OT12 2512 melded (finally done!)


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Posts: 6127
Location: New Braunfels, TX
ctmullins wrote:
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
ctmullins wrote:
It doesn't help that they (we) tend to mix and match monitor types on the same channel
:cop:


Yes, I know... :(


You should have plenty of aux sends on that board.....are you just lacking amps? If so, grab one of the Behringer 6000-4 four channel amps. I just put one in my rack and it's working fine - 4 amps in a 2 space unit.

It's the only Behringer piece of gear in my rig......but so far, so good. And it helped me not to have to carry extra amps for additional aux mixes.

_________________

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:53 am 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 9:05 am
Posts: 195
Location: MS Coast
Ah, monitors....

Our original setup, for many years, was a single monitor send out to a single amp in "input Y" mode. Each side of that amp would drive two monitors, of all different makes and models (no two alike).

Yeah.

Then last year I built the W8s, but in order to incorporate them into our existing scenario meant dropping all of the sub-100hz EQ out from that single monitor send, which raised some eyebrows.

Then our BL got his IEMs, and took another aux from the board (Mackie 1604) for them.

Then along comes my new rig, with two wedge channels instead of just the one (plus one for the IEMs), which I thought was a big step in the right direction.

I do have the extra QSC in the rack that I could easily hook up for two additional monitor sends. Or I could just try and standardize on one type of monitor for everybody, and do the stage left/stage right setup with proper EQ - we don't mind sharing wedges. I'm trying to not be dictatorial about it, ya know? Socially this is a healthy group, no out-of-control egos, and I'd like to keep it that way. But I'm sure we'll have some further discussions about the capabilities open to us now. :)

_________________
-todd

5 and 8 string bass | SansAmp | Crown | 2 x J110
2 x W8 panel-mount
2 x T39 24" 3012LF
4 x OT12 2512 melded (finally done!)


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Posts: 1298
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
ctmullins wrote:
meant dropping all of the sub-100hz EQ out from that single monitor send, which raised some eyebrows.


They would sound very thin on their own but once the main pa came on the low end would fill in. Even our DJ's raise their eyebrows when I do that but once the main subs are on it sounds so much cleaner. Takes a bit of faith from the non sound guys.

_________________
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm
Posts: 25710
ctmullins wrote:
I could just try and standardize on one type of monitor for everybody, and do the stage left/stage right setup with proper EQ -
Everyone should have their own, and they should all be the same. It's not like they take up that much room, and if all the same there's only one EQ setting for all. This seems familiar...isn't it in the plans? :bash:


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 9:05 am
Posts: 195
Location: MS Coast
Of course they should all be the same, no question there. The choice as I see it is the number of channels. For six band members, I could do two channels with three wedges on each channel, or six channels with one wedge on each channel. I'm inclined to start with the former, and see if that proves sufficient. Either option, or any of the other obvious multi-channel options, are still better than our old "one monitor mix to rule them all...".

_________________
-todd

5 and 8 string bass | SansAmp | Crown | 2 x J110
2 x W8 panel-mount
2 x T39 24" 3012LF
4 x OT12 2512 melded (finally done!)


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:48 am
Posts: 66
Location: Hungary (Central-Europe)
(My modified 2010-era Jacks that I use for bass guitar are against the back wall too - the top one has eight 1005 tweeters panel-mounted, and both are currently sporting BP102 drivers - shhhh, don't tell anyone I deviated from the plans!)

How do you like the jacks with the BP102? Are they more round sounding instead of mid heavyness?


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 Post subject: Re: Rig debut
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 9:05 am
Posts: 195
Location: MS Coast
Askia wrote:
How do you like the jacks with the BP102? Are they more round sounding instead of mid heavyness?


Well yeah. :) I was running out of excursion with the 2510s when things got rowdy, so I decided to give the BPs a try. The 2510s by themselves didn't need tweeters for my ears, but the BPs do. More beef down low, though for sure!

It's an experiment that I feel is justified since these are dedicated to backline. And I still have the 2510s in boxes if I ever need/want to go back.

_________________
-todd

5 and 8 string bass | SansAmp | Crown | 2 x J110
2 x W8 panel-mount
2 x T39 24" 3012LF
4 x OT12 2512 melded (finally done!)


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