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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Location: The Neterlands / Holland
Why didn't Bruce build 3 47" dual 3012lf cabs then?
He could have saved $40 on wood, $9 on 6 male and 6 female speakon connectors, $25 on 6 wheels, 15$ on stackable 24 corners, pl+paint $11 = $100 and had broken his back by now.

I'm former strongest student (17 years back) of my country, 6'10" and can still lift 200lbs with no problem and like to be fit when I'm older as well. We have some venue's which you need to go up or down (sometimes even pretty steep) stairs; any 2 people can handle 1 slim T39 sub easy. While with a 90lbs 18" direct radiator :chainsaw: cube, it is for me the easiest to take those by myself because with 2 people you walk in each others way.

On flexability: You can line up the 10 subs in front of a 10m/33' wall from corner to corner to get the best bass possible. Or you can use 8 in a big room and 2 in a small room etc.

6 or 10 subs are a bit impractical, better go with 2,4 or 8.

You don't need more amps or more powerfull amps. With 4 8Ohm subs you can run them @ 4Ohm and you are fine with a less powerfull amp then to drive 2x 8ohm at the same power without bridging the amp.

//edit: an other factor to make things not to heavy is the heavier an object the weaker it is: if you drop a 70lbs box on it's corner on the floor, the impact and damage will be a lot more severe then a 40lbs box made from the same material.

///edit: 2x T48@36"wide, not mine, imagine that they were half the width.... and they start to look transportable.

Image

T39 16" vs T48 30", a T30 30" wide will be as high as the black part and 6" deeper.

Image

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PA Basics | Other interesting audio stuff | Dave Rat - Live sound subwoofer configurations


Last edited by Think on Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:29 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:01 pm 
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Posts: 371
Location: Perth, Western Australia
tactix wrote:
Hi all,
I'm planning on building a pair of Tuba 30s with 12 inch drivers (probably the eminence kappalite 3012lf but I'm open to suggestions) and I'm stuck on what width to make them. I understand that you get more output from having a wider cabinet (max 30") but at what point does this become impractical? Assuming I have the vehicle to transport them, what are the practical doorway limitations that one runs into? It need to be able to get these into club and warehouse spaces but also for the occasional house show. My running assumption is that in most places in the US at 23" cab can make it anywhere and a 28" is going to make it through 90% or the doors one would encounter. Am I on the right track here? Has anyone built at 28" and regretted it?

Cheers,
Jacob


Hi tactix,

Having been where you are now, I just wanted to share a few findings regarding the T30's.

1) Width:
For a single person, 24" is nudging the upper end of size and weight to making for manageable cabs for maneuvering through door/hallways, and lifting into the back of vehicle/trailer, or lugging up stairs. I built with marine ply so my cabs are a bit heavier, so premium drivers saved some weight. IIRC mine weighed in at 36kg a piece, but I built them with heavy duty castors which adds some weight (but makes them easier to move).

2) Driver: I recommend premium all the way. Single loaded, medium width cabs are the go. Two of my single loaded 24" wide cabs will outperform one double loaded cab at max width, making them more cost efficient, and easier to move. Don't waste your time with cheap drivers, you'll kick yourself at the end. The T30's hit pretty hard indoors, but to give you an idea outdoors I also have 2 OT12's and they happily keep up with the 6 T30's. So in my opinion, 3012LF would be the minimum spec driver, I'd also consider the 18Sound premium driver as it will give you a little more headroom and allegedly better thermal efficiency. Depends how hard you plan on running them; if they will be run at full noise for hours on end, definitely consider the extra insurance that the 18sound drivers will offer.

3) Tuba or Titan: You're onto it. Yes the T39 outguns the T30 above 38hz, but that’s raw cab output being measured. Once you factor in your high and low pass filters and your EQ, suddenly the T39 is looking a lot weaker for electronic music with a 45hz cut off (with 2 cabs). Nothing worse than hearing your basslines cut out on the lower notes. With 2 T30's you can happily get to 35hz, which in my opinion is still not quite acceptable but that's just the music I play - you need to measure your content to decide what you need. This is not to bag out the T39, but it is the wrong tool for the job if you're trying to hit sub 45hz.


4) T30 or T45:
While it's true you can't V-plate the T45's, a V-plated stack of T30's does take up a lot of room, a consideration for indoor work. I sometimes think the T45 may have been easier to move around etc, but wheels make any cab easy to move. If you wanted to make them lighter, skip the castors and use a dolly. I do like the form factor of the T45 but haven't yet been stumped when placing the T30's. Most of the time they face a corner or a wall. For me, the clincher was the ability to V-plate for a worthy boost in performance and efficiency.

If you have any other questions about living with the T30's feel free to ask.

_________________
Built:
6 T30 (24", 3012LF)
2 OT12 (MA, 3012HO)

Running:
DCX2496
XTi 2002
XTi 4002
TRAKTOR Z2
TECHNICS 1210 Mk5's


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Posts: 5647
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Think wrote:
Why didn't Bruce build 3 47" dual 3012lf cabs then?
He could have saved $40 on wood, $9 on 6 male and 6 female speakon connectors, $25 on 6 wheels, 15$ on stackable 24 corners, pl+paint $11 = $100 and had broken his back by now.

Because he didn't need to. The whole build process is decisions based on need, output, pack space, impedance and time. Not just cost, and in particular, driver cost.
And there are certain sizes that best maximise ply sheet use. I think you will find that Bruce's 24" wide cabs are in more like 23 15/16" wide due to saw kerf when ripping 8' x 4' sheets in half.


I'm former strongest student (17 years back) of my country, 6'10" and can still lift 200lbs with no problem and like to be fit when I'm older as well. We have some venue's which you need to go up or down (sometimes even pretty steep) stairs; any 2 people can handle 1 slim T39 sub easy. While with a 90lbs 18" direct radiator :chainsaw: cube, it is for me the easiest to take those by myself because with 2 people you walk in each others way.

Sure, when it comes to steps, I agree. Even though I used budget 10" drivers, I still built my cabs to the maximum width for that driver size. Which is 20". Since I don't have help in my business, that made sense to me at that time. But the output of those 4 subs is still down compared to the DR250's I built. Still quite manageable for a 5'9" guy who's never been to a gym in his life.
So my latest build is 2 x maximum width premium single 12" loaded. How will they go with steps? Don't know. But adding those 2 cabs increases my output up to the equivalent of 8 of the smaller 10" loaded cabs and makes up for the deficit, and adds some as well.


On flexability: You can line up the 10 subs in front of a 10m/33' wall from corner to corner to get the best bass possible. Or you can use 8 in a big room and 2 in a small room etc.

Yep, or you could use 6 premium loaded cabs to do exactly the same thing in output and footprint.
Or 4.
Or 1.


6 or 10 subs are a bit impractical, better go with 2,4 or 8.

You don't need more amps or more powerfull amps. With 4 8Ohm subs you can run them @ 4Ohm
and you are fine with a less powerfull amp then to drive 2x 8ohm at the same power without bridging the amp.

You're right. You can run 4 cabs with 2 x 8 ohm cabs in parallel/per channel with a lower powered amp using budget drivers for a 4 ohm load.
But you suggested 10 budget loaded slims instead of 6 premium loaded wider cabs, and there's no way to run all 10 from one amp. Or even two amps with parallel wiring (well you could but you're starting to flog your amp with near to 2 ohm loads). So you need to buy another amp for the final pair.
Or change to series/parallel wiring, and buy amp(s) with higher voltage swing, to manipulate impedance loads.
Just so turns out Bruce runs 2 cabs per amp bridged.


//edit: an other factor to make things not to heavy is the heavier an object the weaker it is: if you drop a 70lbs box on it's corner on the floor, the impact and damage will be a lot more severe then a 40lbs box made from the same material.

_________________
Built:
2 x DR 250 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
4 x 20" BP102 T39's, 2 x 28" 3012lf loaded underway.
3 x WH8 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:37 pm
Posts: 103
Location: The Neterlands / Holland
4 or 8 or 16 Ohm driver value has nothing to do with being budget or not. And what would you call a S2012 driver?

Quote:
But you suggested 10 budget loaded slims instead of 6 premium loaded wider cabs

No I made this comparison to match bruce's 6 regular size premium loaded subs and I don't think the S2012 is a budget driver. The 8x18"would have been a little cheaper, less work, a bit less loud and a lot more practicle.

A behringer inuke nu4 6000 and a few others can run with 1.33 Ohm loads even, so 2x5 or 2x6 8ohm drivers in parallel is even possible and you can even run stereo tops of the other 2 channels..... but as I said 10 is impracticle. 9 speakers can be run in 3 series, 3 parallel which results in their own Ohm load, just like 4x4 or 5x5.

There is nothing wrong with running 4 4Ohm drivers in 2 series 2 parallel (4Ohm) either.

I would even take a T60 slim 15" with a 12" driver over a T30" cubed for easier transportation.

up to 16" (17"?) wide there is only 1 brace needed, 2 up to 24" and 3 up to 32", which also saves in material, weight, construction time and difficulty.

_________________
PA Basics | Other interesting audio stuff | Dave Rat - Live sound subwoofer configurations


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Posts: 5647
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Think wrote:
4 or 8 or 16 Ohm driver value has nothing to do with being budget or not. And what would you call a S2012 driver?

Quote:
But you suggested 10 budget loaded slims instead of 6 premium loaded wider cabs

No I made this comparison to match bruce's 6 regular size premium loaded subs and I don't think the S2012 is a budget driver. The 8x18"would have been a little cheaper, less work, a bit less loud and a lot more practicle.

A behringer inuke nu4 6000 and a few others can run with 1.33 Ohm loads even, so 2x5 or 2x6 8ohm drivers in parallel is even possible and you can even run stereo tops of the other 2 channels..... but as I said 10 is impracticle. 9 speakers can be run in 3 series, 3 parallel which results in their own Ohm load, just like 4x4 or 5x5.

There is nothing wrong with running 4 4Ohm drivers in 2 series 2 parallel (4Ohm) either.

I would even take a T60 slim 15" with a 12" driver over a T30" cubed for easier transportation.

up to 16" (17"?) wide there is only 1 brace needed, 2 up to 24" and 3 up to 32", which saves in material, weight, construction time and difficulty.


The S2010 is a budget driver. In that it doesn't cost as much as a premium driver like the 3012lf.
The S2010 has a voltage limit, IIRC of 27V (compared to 55V for the 3012lf), and will be -6dB at maximum volume compared to the same cab loaded with a 3012lf (or lab12). So, it's a compromise based on cost, that leads to a decrease in output.

People can elect to go that way, as long as they understand the pro's and con's.
There's no way you can convince me to build anything slim. IMHO it's just a WOFTAM when I can increase output simply by building wider. Pack space isn't an issue for me. But I do have to be able to move, position and store the cab by myself.

Apologies to the OP for the hijack...

_________________
Built:
2 x DR 250 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
4 x 20" BP102 T39's, 2 x 28" 3012lf loaded underway.
3 x WH8 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:37 pm
Posts: 103
Location: The Neterlands / Holland
As I wrote earlier: it is less then 6dB due to powercompression.
2x S2012 will outperform a 3012lf.
Budget, regular or great value; there is nothing wrong with using the s2010 or s2012.
You need about 4 wide, 6 regular or 8 slim's to get a big enough mouth area when used without "wall-loading" to get maximum low end out of them no matter what drivers you put in them.

_________________
PA Basics | Other interesting audio stuff | Dave Rat - Live sound subwoofer configurations


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Posts: 5647
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Think wrote:
As I wrote earlier: it is less then 6dB due to powercompression.
2x S2012 will outperform a 3012lf.
Budget, regular or great value; there is nothing wrong with using the s2010 or s2012 and if you want the best sound.
You need about 4 wide, 6 regular or 8 slim's to get a big enough mouth area when used without "wall-loading" to get maximum low end out of them no matter what drivers you put in them.


I'm not even sure the s2012 is an acceptable driver. All the most relevant parameters are so near the limits I wouldn't consider it, and, with 150W RMS power handling capacity, put in one of Bill's horn subs would see it's limits reaches very quickly I would think.
It isn't listed in my (older) plans. Neither is the S2010, even though it must have been at one stage for SPL charts to exist.

And now that I've woken up to the fact you're discussing the S2012 and not the S2010, 2 of them will cost you more than 1 x 3012lf. :conf:

The driver also does not dictate sound, it's the design...

_________________
Built:
2 x DR 250 (melded array) with March 2012 plans.
4 x 20" BP102 T39's, 2 x 28" 3012lf loaded underway.
3 x WH8 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Posts: 6092
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Think wrote:
Why didn't Bruce build 3 47" dual 3012lf cabs then?


Simple....like most people on this forum - I started with two subs. They are 25 inches wide because that was the most efficient use of 4x8 plywood - all interior panels were just under 24 inches. In order to get the most out of those two boxes, I chose the best driver I could get.

Then I built two more just like them so that they matched output and pack space.

The last two at 22 inches were purchased from a guy who had them built by an authorized dealer. I paid almost exactly what it would have cost me to build them in materials and the footprint worked perfectly in my trailer.

Regardless, if I'm going to put in the time, effort, and expense of building a speaker cabinet - I'm not going to purposely put in an inferior driver to save a little money per cab, but then have to build twice as many at a higher total cost. My time does have some value, so it's not just the cost of materials and drivers.

You can look at charts all day and do math until your head spins, but I'm a musician and own a sound company - so I just do what works and leave all the "what ifs" to people who wish to spend their time pontificating instead of building cabs and making music. To each his own.......but, I prefer making music.

_________________

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:37 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:37 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Bellingham, WA
Bruce Weldy wrote:

You can look at charts all day and do math until your head spins, but I'm a musician and own a sound company - so I just do what works and leave all the "what ifs" to people who wish to spend their time pontificating instead of building cabs and making music. To each his own.......but, I prefer making music.

:clap:

_________________
2 x 21" T30's with Lab12's
2 x 28" T30's with Lab12's
2 x OTop12 with Deltalite 2512


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:16 am 
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Posts: 103
Location: The Neterlands / Holland
I think we are all here because we don't follow the big "high power direct radiator" flock/herd; the "because everybody does it like that" herd.
Some come here throught experience, others out of curiosity but we all stay here because we have learned that Bill's design's are standing out, I bet Bill is just like us in that respect and might even be a kind of an extremist like me. :lol:

I would like our communication te be more constructive; I'm not here to attack anyone or to tell anyone what to do, for me the fun is helping each other and discus the designs and other audio related stuff, to make sound and live better, more enjoyable.

I like to get to best value for money and enjoy spending time on that. That might change if I would have to live from this hobby. Maybe you guys like to go for the most output for the lowest price with the least amount of time or is there something else what makes our communication lacking of understanding for each others viewpoints? For me there is no wrong or right here.

(Maybe this is a bit out of the ordinary post as well, but English is not my native language and I'm lacking a 'normal/regular' audio background, I try to do my best.)

back on topic: The S2012 and Delta 12LFA seems (as far as I could find) to perform better/flatter in wider titans and Tuba's, the S2010 is recommended over the S2012 in slim's. Is there a minimum width recommendation for the 3012LF or 12"drivers in general? The 3012lf's seem to like the +/- 30" wide cabs best with the T30 and T39.

//edit:typo

_________________
PA Basics | Other interesting audio stuff | Dave Rat - Live sound subwoofer configurations


Last edited by Think on Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:42 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:37 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Bellingham, WA
Two nice posts from both Bruce & Think.

We're all here for same reasons of quality of the speakers we build and the community support. The quality of the designs is the easy part and I cannot thank Bill enough for his time & efforts to share these designs with us. While I have only built a small section of plans, I have been to Burningman four times now and where I have heard just about every configuration of plans & designs imaginable. There's an incredible amount of stage's & art cars all using them that decided not to throw a large sum of money for a name brand system. They wanted the same thing quality.

The other aspect of community support is the difficult part. We all have our own personal ideas of what is best based on our needs & experience. Those needs are completely subjective. Being able to share that in a constructive conversation (anyone notice the original poster hasn't said anything for quite some time & I hope they're not scared away) is the hard part.

_________________
2 x 21" T30's with Lab12's
2 x 28" T30's with Lab12's
2 x OTop12 with Deltalite 2512


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:19 pm
Posts: 371
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Think wrote:
Is there a minimum width recommendation for the 3012LF or 12"drivers in general? The 3012lf's seem to like the +/- 30" wide cabs best with the T30 and T39.


The minimum width for T30 loaded with a twelve is 16" according to the plans.

From reading this thread, the way you have come across is closed-minded and all-knowing. If you're going to tell someone they are wrong, make sure you have your facts straight. Otherwise, you are misleading people. Resolve to ask and learn instead because discernment and respect go a long way.

_________________
Built:
6 T30 (24", 3012LF)
2 OT12 (MA, 3012HO)

Running:
DCX2496
XTi 2002
XTi 4002
TRAKTOR Z2
TECHNICS 1210 Mk5's


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:52 am 
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Posts: 103
Location: The Neterlands / Holland
commander_dan wrote:
...
From reading this thread, the way you have come across is closed-minded and all-knowing.

Thank you for your honesty and directness; that's something people often don't like about me.

Truthfully, I'm completely the other way around: I question everything and am certainly not all knowing, but my friends call me a walking database; I know a lot and believe as less as possible. The more you know, the more you know the less you know.
Quote:
If you're going to tell someone they are wrong,

please point me where I do that: I'm not aware of doing that.
Quote:
make sure you have your facts straight. Otherwise, you are misleading people.

Do I? Please point them out; there is enough nonsense in the world allready.

_________________
PA Basics | Other interesting audio stuff | Dave Rat - Live sound subwoofer configurations


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 656
Location: Colonial Beach VA
Very little financial, political or justice issues here,

But WE are a big database of working knowledge on live and recorded sound reinforcement.

Ask your questions here before buying parts or making sawdust.

Understand that our answers are not swayed by salesmen.

Understand that our gigs rely on our success and we don't like taking chances....

_________________
Authorized Builder.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Posts: 41
Location: Columbus,OH
chrisj360 wrote:
The other aspect of community support is the difficult part. We all have our own personal ideas of what is best based on our needs & experience. Those needs are completely subjective. Being able to share that in a constructive conversation (anyone notice the original poster hasn't said anything for quite some time & I hope they're not scared away) is the hard part.


OP here,
Not scared off my any stretch - just coming off a whirlwind prep and ride through the beginning of the week. It's pretty clear to me from the discussion that my asking the question about cabinet width is well placed- it's debatable. My takeaways from the discussion are the following:
1) Wider cabs (within design specs) get better performance out of a driver than narrower ones.
2) Deciding to build wider cabs is a question of a) portability b) plywood sheet efficiency c) one’s ability to store them
3) Somewhere there is a sweet spot between the number of cabs with less efficient/cheaper drivers and wider cabs with more efficient drivers.
4) Double loading cabs saves on build time and materials– I’m unclear if it’s more space efficient.
5) Fewer cabs means less material use and time investment (though some feel that larger cabs are significantly more difficult and time consuming to build because they need more braces)

Having not built any of these yet myself I’m swayed by the argument of build fewer medium or wider cabinets as opposed to a larger number of slim cabs – this seems like a lot more work and the hundred bucks you save on the cheaper driver is quickly offset by the extra time it takes to assemble the additional cabinets and extra material you’ll use. Build time for me is the real investment. Thus it comes down to portability – how wide can I go while still being able to move them? Tuba 45s are an option but you can’t bridge em. The vplate is such an elegant way to gain output it’s hard for me to resist. I’m going to make a 24” mock up out of cardboard and see what’s like to move it around. If it seems unwieldy I’ll cut it down 4” which presumably will get through most spaces.
Thank you all for the lively discussion. Please let me know if my assessment seem on the money or not!

Cheers!


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