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 Post subject: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:59 am
Posts: 73
Location: Littleton, Colorado
I think I've read every thread I can and still can't decide.
I'm building a rig for my son to use for DJ work. He's definitely an EDM guy - dubstep probably not a concern.
Currently I have 4 lab12s and am trying to decide between 4 Tuba 30s, 4 T39s, 4 T48s or 2 T48s dual loaded with lab12s. Pack space is not a concern. I'm just looking for the most bang for the lab12s that I have for outdoor use. Probably 200ish peoples max.

_________________
Built:
Omni Tallboy 15 w/3015LF (My BBQ music Machine!)
2 Lab 12 T39s 24" Wide
4 OT12s, 2 Melded Array, 2 Flat Array


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:08 am
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Location: Warren, MI
4 T48, as wide as using the Lab 12 will allow. Having more cabinets is always better than dual-loaded. I don't know the maximum width for the Lab 12, but build as wide as possible. And build a V=plate. +3dBs for the one-time cost of a piece of plywood.

Honestly, though, it is WELL WORTH the upgrade to KappaLite 3015LFs! Order them as kits through Leland Crooks at Speaker Hardware. Will save you a LOT of time and effort, plus, as a BONUS, you'll be supporting an American small business, and he and his son are really great guys to work with! You can order EVERYTHING you need to build, including CNC cut flat packs and DuraTex finish.

_________________
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice


Last edited by DJPhatman on Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:19 pm
Posts: 371
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Hi,

Best bang for effort here would be 4 x single loaded T48 at max width. Big cabs though, but they will go low enough for most EDM bar some dubstep.

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Built:
6 T30 (24", 3012LF)
2 OT12 (MA, 3012HO)

Running:
DCX2496
XTi 2002
XTi 4002
TRAKTOR Z2
TECHNICS 1210 Mk5's


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:16 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:59 am
Posts: 73
Location: Littleton, Colorado
DJPhatman wrote:
Order them as kits through Leland Crooks at Speaker Hardware. Will save you a LOT of time and effort, plus, as a BONUS, you'll be supporting an American small business,
Yeah - I ordered some items for my Omni Tallboy from Leland and just ordered some parts for my DR250s from him also. I already have the labs and exchanging them is cost prohibitive at this point - my wife shoots better than me and when she sees the checking account I better duck :shock:
4 T48s it is!

_________________
Built:
Omni Tallboy 15 w/3015LF (My BBQ music Machine!)
2 Lab 12 T39s 24" Wide
4 OT12s, 2 Melded Array, 2 Flat Array


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:08 am
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Location: Warren, MI
Just so you know, this is the difference between the 3015Lf and the Lab 12/3012LF (response is nearly identical):



I tossed the JBL dual 18" loaded SRX728 in there to "prove" a point. The JBL may take 2000 watts, but it will never sound as clean and tight as the T48.

BTW, the T48s are both nominal 10 Ohm cabs, the JBL is a 4 Ohm cab. Since this chart is at 2.83 Volts, the JBL is getting 2 watts, the T48s are getting 0.8 watt!

_________________
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:59 am
Posts: 73
Location: Littleton, Colorado
DJPhatman wrote:
Just so you know, this is the difference between the 3015Lf and the Lab 12/3012LF (response is nearly identical):
Thanks for the chart. Unless I'm reading this wrong, looks like I'm good to go with the Lab12s in the T48s. I'll see where this endeavor goes with my son and choose more wisely next time :oops:

_________________
Built:
Omni Tallboy 15 w/3015LF (My BBQ music Machine!)
2 Lab 12 T39s 24" Wide
4 OT12s, 2 Melded Array, 2 Flat Array


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Posts: 1291
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
jdmrivera wrote:
I'm just looking for the most bang for the lab12s that I have for outdoor use. Probably 200ish peoples max.


4 t48's would be more than adequate for a crowd that size :wink: .

_________________
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:19 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Tilburg, Netherlands
Why not build a quad of t45's. It's desiged around a twelve, has a nicer rolloff at the botom and is considerably smaller then a T48. T48 is more of a live sound woofer cab whereas a t45 is recomended for musical play back situations.
Not that I think T48's are not up to it, they're just designed with an other purpose in mind.

For that matter two dual loaded t60's would be an even better choice, considering you have the drivers needed and pack space is not an issue.


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:34 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:59 am
Posts: 73
Location: Littleton, Colorado
Disco-inferno wrote:
Why not build a quad of t45's. It's desiged around a twelve, has a nicer rolloff at the botom and is considerably smaller then a T48. T48 is more of a live sound woofer cab whereas a t45 is recomended for musical play back situations.
Not that I think T48's are not up to it, they're just designed with an other purpose in mind.

For that matter two dual loaded t60's would be an even better choice, considering you have the drivers needed and pack space is not an issue.
I did think about the T45s. I wasn't sure what the stacking configuration would look like with four since they are end firing. Can they be stacked and V plated? I thought about the two T60s also. I assume two is plenty and they could just stand on end next to each other or laid down.

_________________
Built:
Omni Tallboy 15 w/3015LF (My BBQ music Machine!)
2 Lab 12 T39s 24" Wide
4 OT12s, 2 Melded Array, 2 Flat Array


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Location: Warren, MI
jdmrivera wrote:
I did think about the T45s. I wasn't sure what the stacking configuration would look like with four since they are end firing. Can they be stacked and V plated?




No, they do not benefit from V-plating. All subwoofer cabinets gain from stacking. The T48 gives a much better response than the T45 and the T60, except below ~38Hz, where the T60 reigns supreme. Don't chase a 8-10Hz difference, where you can't really hear, while losing SPL where it matters, between 40Hz and 80Hz.

_________________
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Posts: 1291
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
jdmrivera wrote:
I thought about the two T60s also. I assume two is plenty and they could just stand on end next to each other or laid down.


That depends on what you mean by this statement:
jdmrivera wrote:
He's definitely an EDM guy - dubstep probably not a concern.


Indoors, my 2 dual t60's are just perfect for about 350 people with the latest Top40 Dance Music, however I do a bunch of EDM shows (Dubstep) and you really need 4 duals to come alive for Dubstep for a crowd that size. In a smaller room (80 people), the 2 duals are fine for dubstep.

Outdoors you need about double the subs as indoors for the same effect. My experience is that 2 dual T60's outside would be okay to start but you would probably want to add another 2 down the road. The T48's v-plated would get you there without needing to add on later down the road at the cost of the bottom 10hz.

This all depends of course on the intended listening volume. My experience is that the youth want nightclub levels, the neighbors might have other plans.

_________________
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:19 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Tilburg, Netherlands
Nice graph, and in case you use single cabs it makes sence. What this grap doesn't show us however, is that four 20" single loaded t60's without boundary loading will play near flat down to 50Hz and then roll off 6dB/oct. down to an Fc of 27Hz. It's a different animal. T48' will start to roll off higher at 65Hz and will do so, much steeper then t60's.

Taking the natural rolloff for granted you will not have any problems with the titan48 but everything below say 50Hz will be lacking.

The titans will be louder in the bass range where the tubas are stronger at sub bass. Flattening out response there will give problems in places you don't want them. EDM demands large quantity of sub bas. Making titans move enough air in the sub bass range can and will cause driver failure. At the frequencies you're boosting there's no excursion thus no cooling enter the magic white smoke.

Just my 2c. Don't go there, use the right tool.

Edited, +1 to what CO said.


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:59 am
Posts: 73
Location: Littleton, Colorado
Thanks for all the input.
I'll go with the T48s at 24 inches wide. It seems that they will allow more configuration options as far placement/stacking and according to the plans can be high passed at 35Hz with 4 or more.

I also started two DR250s this weekend and so far I have the horns glued up. Spent a lot of time staring at the sketchup model to verify all the angles. I'll start a separate build thread for those later.

_________________
Built:
Omni Tallboy 15 w/3015LF (My BBQ music Machine!)
2 Lab 12 T39s 24" Wide
4 OT12s, 2 Melded Array, 2 Flat Array


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:08 am
Posts: 5372
Location: Warren, MI
Disco-inferno wrote:
Nice graph, and in case you use single cabs it makes sence. What this grap doesn't show us however, is that four 20" single loaded t60's without boundary loading will play near flat down to 50Hz and then roll off 6dB/oct. down to an Fc of 27Hz. It's a different animal. T48' will start to roll off higher at 65Hz and will do so, much steeper then t60's.


Really? Quoted from Bill on the T60 SPL forum thread:

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Tuba 60 1x15 and T48 1x15, 36 inches wide:
Image

T60 has the advantage below 32Hz, T48 the advantage above 32Hz. If you don't really need the output below 32Hz that T60 is capable of you don't need the T60, so be well sure of it before you make your choice.


Both cabinets will gain +6dB for double the cab count, only the T48 gains another +3dB from a V-plate.

Disco-inferno wrote:
Taking the natural rolloff for granted you will not have any problems with the titan48 but everything below say 50Hz will be lacking.


Please show where you see that? While a single cab starts to roll off at 60Hz, the T60 single 20" wide has a -6dB drop starting at 48Hz to 35Hz, where the T48 beats it. While I agree that the T60 goes about 10Hz lower (T60 High pass = 23Hz, T48 high pass = 30Hz), the T48 goes a LOT louder, and benefits from the V-plate, which is especially helpful outdoors. This is why I will always recommend T48 over T30/45, because it kicks their collective ass, especially in groups of 4 or more. There are very, very few mobile operations that need T60s, but their egos talk them into it. T48 certainly do not lack below 50Hz, in fact, they rule even the T60 down to 32Hz!

jdmrivera wrote:
Thanks for all the input.
I'll go with the T48s at 24 inches wide. It seems that they will allow more configuration options as far placement/stacking and according to the plans can be high passed at 35Hz with 4 or more.

I also started two DR250s this weekend and so far I have the horns glued up. Spent a lot of time staring at the sketchup model to verify all the angles. I'll start a separate build thread for those later.


+100! If you can build 1 set wider, do! Can't wait for the DR250 thread, although this T48 hasn't started yet, either! :wink: :lol: :mrgreen: :ugeek:

_________________
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice


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 Post subject: Re: T48 with dual 12s
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:59 am
Posts: 73
Location: Littleton, Colorado
DJPhatman wrote:
+100! If you can build 1 set wider, do! Can't wait for the DR250 thread, although this T48 hasn't started yet, either! :wink: :lol: :mrgreen: :ugeek:
Thanks for the encouragement! Speaker build will be on pause for a bit while I put up new fence in my yard :x I'll start the new build thread as soon as I can..

_________________
Built:
Omni Tallboy 15 w/3015LF (My BBQ music Machine!)
2 Lab 12 T39s 24" Wide
4 OT12s, 2 Melded Array, 2 Flat Array


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